Lets fix the problem with the wheels flying off... (1 Viewer)

Anybody remember when Eddie Hill lost a Tire in '89 at the Winternatl's? The cars were running 5.0s back then, I don't recall anyone begging the NHRA for single mag motors or 1000' racing! Some of you look for ways to try and re-invent this sport! Amazing!

When Hill lost his wheel cars were using fabricated 9" housings or 9" live axle rears, 1/2" studs and wheels that were made to be light weight. The same cars now use 12" rears, larger studs and wheels that are much sturdier.

I have talked to knowledgable individuals who have seen the wheel(s), some of the studs that broke, and the rears. I also looked into the procedures used by the teams to tighten their wheels. All of this was done for me to determine the necessary steps to be done prior to any of my family members get into a car again.

It is now time for an up graded design or slow the cars down. I believe the NHRA feels the same way in that they started a testing program to slow the cars down last year. As soon as the teams with the money agree, it will happen, but they have the advantage now and want to keep it that way.

For a long time I have been in favor of making the cars simpler, less powerful and less expensive to run. It is not my belief that there has to be a record set at every event for that event to be successful. I feel that close racing by a lot of teams with all of them having the ability to win puts on a better show. This type of show draws more entrants, more spectators and more media attention than watching the same teams win event after event because they have the money to buy the most parts and people.

As a side note, I think the moves I advocated wouldn't harm any team, would give more teams the oppotunity to compete, and might even help the tire problem (they still chunk a lot and many times you only get 1 or 2 runs on a set at $1500.00 per set). The single mag and blower overdrive will limit fuel volume, and the 4 disc clutch will slow the cars approximately 30 mph at the 1/8th mile. And these changes are very easy for NHRA to monitor compliance. The teams have already spent the money to make the blowers more efficient and there isn't much left to do there.
 
When Hill lost his wheel cars were using fabricated 9" housings or 9" live axle rears, 1/2" studs and wheels that were made to be light weight. The same cars now use 12" rears, larger studs and wheels that are much sturdier.

I have talked to knowledgable individuals who have seen the wheel(s), some of the studs that broke, and the rears. I also looked into the procedures used by the teams to tighten their wheels. All of this was done for me to determine the necessary steps to be done prior to any of my family members get into a car again.

It is now time for an up graded design or slow the cars down. I believe the NHRA feels the same way in that they started a testing program to slow the cars down last year. As soon as the teams with the money agree, it will happen, but they have the advantage now and want to keep it that way.

For a long time I have been in favor of making the cars simpler, less powerful and less expensive to run. It is not my belief that there has to be a record set at every event for that event to be successful. I feel that close racing by a lot of teams with all of them having the ability to win puts on a better show. This type of show draws more entrants, more spectators and more media attention than watching the same teams win event after event because they have the money to buy the most parts and people.

As a side note, I think the moves I advocated wouldn't harm any team, would give more teams the oppotunity to compete, and might even help the tire problem (they still chunk a lot and many times you only get 1 or 2 runs on a set at $1500.00 per set). The single mag and blower overdrive will limit fuel volume, and the 4 disc clutch will slow the cars approximately 30 mph at the 1/8th mile. And these changes are very easy for NHRA to monitor compliance. The teams have already spent the money to make the blowers more efficient and there isn't much left to do there.

hey virgil, can you put a restrictor plate under the blower, along with a pump restriction to slow them? also how about remove the clutch management? would those three things be enough to slow the cars but keep them competitive? I direct this question to you because of your knowledge of running a top fuel dragster.
 
hey virgil, can you put a restrictor plate under the blower, along with a pump restriction to slow them? also how about remove the clutch management? would those three things be enough to slow the cars but keep them competitive? I direct this question to you because of your knowledge of running a top fuel dragster.

Maybe only race 1/8 mile....with a 50 foot tall catch fence down both sides of the entire length of the track. Why not install driver ejector seats in all the cars too .Hell....just do the burn outs and call it a day !
 
Maybe only race 1/8 mile....with a 50 foot tall catch fence down both sides of the entire length of the track. Why not install driver ejector seats in all the cars too .Hell....just do the burn outs and call it a day !

I for one, would rather see side by side 4.60's and 70's in the 1/4 than 1 car going a 3.80 and the other blowing up or smoking tires.
 
Maybe only race 1/8 mile....with a 50 foot tall catch fence down both sides of the entire length of the track. Why not install driver ejector seats in all the cars too .Hell....just do the burn outs and call it a day !

Mike - a person was killed walking through the pits because a part (or parts) failed. Most of us view this as totally unacceptable. Can you imagine what could have happened if that wheel had bounced a few degrees to the left and landed in the stands?
Do you want to see the end of NHRA fuel racing? That could easily happen when no insurer will provide coverage for an event because a precedent for liability has been established.
In my opinion, this has been an excellent thread with a lot of great discussion.
Doing nothing could be deadly in more ways than one.
 
Mike - a person was killed walking through the pits because a part (or parts) failed. Most of us view this as totally unacceptable. Can you imagine what could have happened if that wheel had bounced a few degrees to the left and landed in the stands?
Do you want to see the end of NHRA fuel racing? That could easily happen when no insurer will provide coverage for an event because a precedent for liability has been established.
In my opinion, this has been an excellent thread with a lot of great discussion.
Doing nothing could be deadly in more ways than one.

No matter what you do racing will always be dangerous ! Safety improvements are a great thing but gutting the sport is a knee-jerk reaction !The fact that the NHRA has been in full retreat the last several years proves that nitro racing, as we all know it , will soon be a thing of the past.Thank God that I got to enjoy the glory days....from the late 60's to the early 2000's ! Most of you on here are insiders.....but take it from a lifelong fan and all my friends....this sport has shot itself in the foot !
 
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Come to think of it....should have gone to 1000 ft racing when Garlits blew off half his foot in Swamp Rat 13 !
 
I'm pretty sure that driving to and from the races carries a higher risk than watching them.

Only a matter of time before someone ( photographer) gets hurt or killed along the wall. Only a matter of time before a fan or crew guy gets hurt or killed in the pits during warm-ups !Only a matter of time before someone dies on the interstate driving to a race ! Please replace the nitro motors with lawn mower engines before the insurance companies turn their backs on the sport ! lmao
 
Maybe only race 1/8 mile....with a 50 foot tall catch fence down both sides of the entire length of the track. Why not install driver ejector seats in all the cars too .Hell....just do the burn outs and call it a day !

All I know is that I'm damn happy the internet wasn't around during the 60's! If it had been, we most likely wouldn't have drag racing today.
 
... can you put a restrictor plate under the blower, along with a pump restriction...
Leave the pumps alone , let the tuners decide what they need for their own combination's.
You have to restrict the inlet (injector) or overdrive ratio on the blower to be effective.
The best rules are the ones that require an easy tech and a few inspectors...
No measuring is needed for one mag, and counting pulley teeth is so easy even a NHRA caveman can do it...:p
 
Come to think of it....should have gone to 1000 ft racing when Garlits blew off half his foot in Swamp Rat 13 !

I can't understand statements like this. Radical change in top fuel was the result of this incident. Garlits took a design that had been around for 20 years (remember the Speed Sport roadster as an example) and perfected it so that it was predictable and everyone could use it. The rear engine dragster.

The glory years? Look at old footage of Pomona and you will notice the guard rails were cones in the 60's. We lost a lot of good people in the era that was quoted as the glory years. Safety has progressed tremendously. Performance has also, but has escalated a bunch in the last 10 years. I have voiced the opinions of many that compete that we need to reign in these performance increases and go back to a safer and more economical level. I believe the performance levels of early in this decade are a good level for the competitors and fans.

Yes the sport has "shot itself in the foot" by allowing Pro Stockers to be so powerful that they cannot traverse anything less than a perfect racing surface. That the nitro cars must run 1,000' because they are too quick and fast for the facilities. The norm for winning nitro teams is 8 new short blocks and 8 new sets of heads per event, 8 superchargers at the ready, and a small army as a crew. It now takes 2 to 3 semis to carry the necessary parts to run a competitive single car nitro team plus a couple of vehicles for hospitality. Pro Stock and Funny Cars that all look the same, and none of them resemble what they are suppose to represent.

Drag racing started as my car and driver against your car and driver. No electronics, no big pit or crew. Sound similar to what Pinks is now? Why is that show so popular?

The glory days can be tomorrow with a little common sense.
 
Man Virgil you are dead on. I do not see how having a high 4 second, 290-300 mph race car is gutting the sport, when it could mean a LOT more of them out there, with the chances of different winners very high. I wish I could get to Bakersfield to see a 32 car FC show and 16 TF cars, with a lot of mystery as to who may win. I have posted in other places that there ARE limits to things. Did NASCAR get gutted when they slowed them down? Look at how many guys are building Nostalgia FCs, and how many fans are coming out to see them. It's just so simple, yet NHRA will fight making the right moves forever, and I know part of it is because of the big-dollar teams. That is surprising to me though, since the big-dollar teams are supposedly run as a business, and a different structure could certainly make it a much more profitable venture to run these cars.
 
i can't understand statements like this. Radical change in top fuel was the result of this incident. Garlits took a design that had been around for 20 years (remember the speed sport roadster as an example) and perfected it so that it was predictable and everyone could use it. The rear engine dragster.

The glory years? Look at old footage of pomona and you will notice the guard rails were cones in the 60's. We lost a lot of good people in the era that was quoted as the glory years. Safety has progressed tremendously. Performance has also, but has escalated a bunch in the last 10 years. I have voiced the opinions of many that compete that we need to reign in these performance increases and go back to a safer and more economical level. I believe the performance levels of early in this decade are a good level for the competitors and fans.

Yes the sport has "shot itself in the foot" by allowing pro stockers to be so powerful that they cannot traverse anything less than a perfect racing surface. That the nitro cars must run 1,000' because they are too quick and fast for the facilities. The norm for winning nitro teams is 8 new short blocks and 8 new sets of heads per event, 8 superchargers at the ready, and a small army as a crew. It now takes 2 to 3 semis to carry the necessary parts to run a competitive single car nitro team plus a couple of vehicles for hospitality. Pro stock and funny cars that all look the same, and none of them resemble what they are suppose to represent.

Drag racing started as my car and driver against your car and driver. No electronics, no big pit or crew. Sound similar to what pinks is now? Why is that show so popular?

The glory days can be tomorrow with a little common sense.

Right On!!!
 
I can't understand statements like this. Radical change in top fuel was the result of this incident. Garlits took a design that had been around for 20 years (remember the Speed Sport roadster as an example) and perfected it so that it was predictable and everyone could use it. The rear engine dragster.

The glory years? Look at old footage of Pomona and you will notice the guard rails were cones in the 60's. We lost a lot of good people in the era that was quoted as the glory years. Safety has progressed tremendously. Performance has also, but has escalated a bunch in the last 10 years. I have voiced the opinions of many that compete that we need to reign in these performance increases and go back to a safer and more economical level. I believe the performance levels of early in this decade are a good level for the competitors and fans.

Yes the sport has "shot itself in the foot" by allowing Pro Stockers to be so powerful that they cannot traverse anything less than a perfect racing surface. That the nitro cars must run 1,000' because they are too quick and fast for the facilities. The norm for winning nitro teams is 8 new short blocks and 8 new sets of heads per event, 8 superchargers at the ready, and a small army as a crew. It now takes 2 to 3 semis to carry the necessary parts to run a competitive single car nitro team plus a couple of vehicles for hospitality. Pro Stock and Funny Cars that all look the same, and none of them resemble what they are suppose to represent.

Drag racing started as my car and driver against your car and driver. No electronics, no big pit or crew. Sound similar to what Pinks is now? Why is that show so popular?

The glory days can be tomorrow with a little common sense.

Well Virgil, this is the point I am trying to make......fix the PROBLEM....don't change the basic traditions of the sport ! Garlits didn't cry for the sport to be neutered....he rolled up his sleeves and inovated, made things safer for everyone, got back in his dragster and raced 1320 !
Pinks is so popular BECAUSE it is balls out, basic racing...winner is the winner...no "Countdown" crap to keep everyone interested till the end.
I have nothing but respect for you, Virgil , as a business man and a race team owner. Most of you here on this site are insiders and you see things from a different point of view.I am trying to bring a fan's point of view to some of these posts.I have maybe 12 friends in my circle that always attended NHRA races every year....and I'm the ONLY one of them that still attends because they are all fed-up with 1000 ft ,slowed down racing.You guys do what you think is best to change the sport for the better... but don't be surprised to see more and more empty seats on race day.
 
There's been some good thoughts expressed here both regarding retaining the wheels better and potentially making the sport safer and less costly by taking steps to slow the cars down.

But I view them as two separate issues. I think its definitely possible to substantially reduce the problem of the wheels flying off without slowing the cars down, and rather than repeating myself, here's what I recommended the last time this happened (last year, Tim Wilkerson's car):

(Tim Wilkerson's response to a question about what happened)

“I really don’t have an idea,” said Wilkerson, who was working Wednesday afternoon in preparation for this weekend’s NHRA Virginia Nationals. “With these back to back races, I barely have time to do anything. I have already talked to Strange, and he wants the wheels and the hubs.

“It’s hard to say [what happened] because other teams have broken studs from time to time. It happens from time to time, but that was pretty bizarre right there. We need to make sure that doesn’t happen anymore."

This makes a couple of clear points. Expecting the racers themselves to solve this problem, with all they have on their plates, is clearly not the most expedient way to fix this problem.

Sending them to the manufacturer is a step in the right direction, but to be fully candid, manufacturers have forces pulling on them from a lot of different directions, and while they can add a lot to fixing a safety issue like this you also need an independent party who purely has the racers best interests at heart making sure the best decisions are being made.

The NHRA should definitely have a safety head that actively performs this kind of function, and if they had that we wouldn't have seen this problem occur again.

Jared, your comment that-

You can make this sport as safe as HUMANLY possible but you CANNOT fix this or any problem with 100% certainty that it won't happen again.

is a good one, but this one of the cases were with a little effort we can make it very unlikely that we ever have wheel stud failures again.

Now that its pretty clear that the wheel studs failed, here's the 3 likely scenerios for the failures, and how they can be fixed.

Catastrophic Failure - this happens when a metal part is flat just not strong enough for its load, so even a brand new one can fail.

If this is the case, either the studs need to be made bigger or of a stronger material, or moved to a larger radius so they have less shear load.

Fatigue Related Failure - a metal part that is strong enough to take its basic max loads can still fail over time from fatique cracks that occur from the loads being repeatedly applied and released.

If this is the case, require that the studs be periodically replaced or magnafluxed for cracks. This is standard procedure in NASCAR, with the crew chief being required to sign off that this has been done. (Note that this is what Tim Gibson has also recommended).

Undertorquing - as was described by Strange in the linked article, an undertorqued fastener is subject to much higher loads than normal.

In any case, even if this wasn't the cause for this failure, I think NHRA should be doing spot checks on wheel torques in the staging lanes as even the strongest studs will be in trouble if wheels aren't torqued right. If a car in the staging lanes doesn't pass the wheel torque test, it would be subject to both a fine and a points penalty.

One other issue is regarding the use of wheel spacers. I feel they both make the wheel assembly weaker, and are also prone to cause problems through improper installation, which apparently was a factor in the Wilkerson failure. I feel the use of wheel spacers should not be allowed.

Implementing these fixes just isn't that bad, and if put in place this problem would likely never occur again. I also think that doing so would make wheel tethers unnecessary. Perhaps a wheel tether system can be worked out, but I'm concerned about the cost and complexity of it, and even with a tether system I think these other changes and procedures should also be implemented.

I'm very concerned however that the NHRA didn't take sufficient steps to solve this problem after it happened multiple times in the past (Wilkerson, Toliver, ...). They just don't seem to have anyone in the organization taking a proactive approach to making the racing safe for both the competitors and spectators, and a severe price was paid for that.

In any other organization, this kind of organizational failure would correctly lead to someone losing a job or some serious restructuring. Unfortunately, the NHRA seems to have everyone snowed into thinking that the normal checks and balances that are applied to the majority of companies and public institutions don't apply to them.

As I've stated in the past, I strongly don't believe this is the case, and that the NHRA could be forced to make some changes to improve their organizational activies, as was described here:

http://www.nitromater.com/nhra/23389-tom-compton-please-retire-2.html#post222629

Its very possible that this time around some changes could be forced on the NHRA from outside the sport as a spectator fatality unfortunately opens up a pretty ugly can of worms.
 
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Paul:

One other mode of failure could be caused by the hubs themselves, And not specifically the studs. I had noticed in a pit video shot after a similar failure that the studs broke off well within the hub. A crew member even walked by with a caliper and measured what appeared to be 3/4 of an inch inside the hub. Then I saw a photo taken by Mark J Rebilas here down track of Antron's car, showing the hub of the car on the roll off wrecker. It looked similar, in that again they appeared to shear off well within the hub. Now this is just a theory, But what if, due to repeated tire shake over a season that the last 3/4 or 1 inch of the stud holes in the hub become flared out or oval shaped? Wouldn't this allow even brand new wheel studs, fully inspected or re-torqued in the lanes by NHRA or whomever, to bend or deflect during severe tire shake? Have you ever broken off a steel nail or bolt by repeatedly bending it in two directions?
 
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I hope they do something before they have to install a catch fence the length of the track like NASCAR has. That would suck.:confused:

I agree. The last thing I want to do is watch a race through a fence. Imagine all the neat photos you could get through a fence? :mad: And how high do you make this fence? Those tires bounce pretty high. And parts don't always go straight away from the car. Many times they go up and down at sharp angles. A fence would be useless in that case.

I think 1" OD wheel studs might be the answer. But what do I know.
 
Find out what's causing wheel failures and make a rule change! Why is that so hard? This happened at 100' off the line, 300 MPH had NOTHING to do with this!

Not only that but it dropped a bunch of holes before it broke, So the damage was caused essentially with half its potential horsepower.
 
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