Dave
Nitro Member
The only problem with that is, the pro stock cars would be slip sliding away from the 1/8th mile on..
Massey 332.18! (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter Rat
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The only problem with that is, the pro stock cars would be slip sliding away from the 1/8th mile on..
Nitrohelper
Nitro Member
What were the problems that two mags solved other than allowing more fuel volume...
They can go over 260 with the nostalgia cars using one mag, smaller tires, and lower boost..
I certainly think you're correct on all three, especially the wings, but only if they also remove the timing controller...
The tires are available now - how about changing the rule for July 1st 2012 to see who can figure it out the quickest...
none
Nitro Member
Jerry,
Those cars already have smaller pumps and blowers. I believe that aside from dropped cylinders, dialing back the initial timing makes them easier to start and when they were first introduced also helped with parts life because they were so much more efficient. I could certainly be wrong, but as I stated before, no current tuner that I have spoken to thinks one mag is a good approach to this issue.
With the blowers and pumps they are running now, how much lead would be needed to start the fire early enough?
Alan
Those cars already have smaller pumps and blowers. I believe that aside from dropped cylinders, dialing back the initial timing makes them easier to start and when they were first introduced also helped with parts life because they were so much more efficient. I could certainly be wrong, but as I stated before, no current tuner that I have spoken to thinks one mag is a good approach to this issue.
With the blowers and pumps they are running now, how much lead would be needed to start the fire early enough?
Alan
Nitrohelper
Nitro Member
Alan ,
I currently have various tune-ups in 12 Nostalgia cars so I'm very aware of the pumps & blowers ...
I was tuning several cars in the 80s when the two mags came into use - I don't know of any problems they solved, in fact they helped to spend more money on fuel volume and then blowers...
That was my point about the Nostalgia cars,we are making just over 3000 hp. and going over 260 -
bring the big show cars back in power to run just over 300 in 1320...
We run 60 to 70 degrees with one 8 amp mag, they could run less with 44 amps...
Of course they couldn't run the same pumps as now - One mag would be the most drastic change to make ,
but it would bring Nitro burning back to something that some tuners have dealt with in the past...
That's why none of the current tuners want to start over with a new combination... All the current data & weather tuning spreadsheets would be scrapped , lets see which tuners can figure it out first and best...
Your plan for smaller tires and wings would be even better with one mag and no timing controller...
It is, but you have to look at the big picture not just what happened this weekend. These cars are going to keep getting quicker and faster and the day is going to come where they hit 340 in 1000 or we watch some pretty big crashes at the expense of our racers. Moving the track back from 1000ft that is not the answer and I and I am sure others will just stop watching all together. The answer is a controlled return to 1320.
Now, Alan Johnson is correct. Of course you are going to be killin more parts if you have more traction than power, (tho we blow alot up because we make more power than the availiable traction, so it's not too different) so the answer is these cars need to be less powerful. We have to stop using the best technology available and roll back the clock. Isn't there a way these cars could stick around 4.70-4.80 at 1320 and run the way they did in 1995, 1996? Yeah every drag ran wants to see the 4.420/337 numbers again, but I think every fan has accepted that seeing a 4.40 TF car to 1320 was something we will never see again.
We pay close to 5 bucks for gas and have grown to accept around 3 dollar gas prices, and I feel that most fans would just love to see nitro back at 1320 even with adjustments. Top alcohol Dragster running 5.20's on average so what, keep them there. Let's put TF back around 4.70-4.80 and keep it there with a technology rollback. Now how?
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none
Nitro Member
Jerry,
I wasn’t a crew chief at the time, and am not now, but after many conversations I have come to believe that when the 2nd mag was introduced it made the cars more consistent, more efficient, easier to tune, and more maintenance friendly (read easier on parts). After a short period more fuel was added and better blowers came to be and the troubles started all over again, but nobody I have talked to has ever said the second mag was a bad thing.
If the rules said you could run a second mag on the nostalgia cars would you do it? Even if you’re not allowed to change the blower or pump?
And as I have stated more than once, I could be wrong
Alan
I wasn’t a crew chief at the time, and am not now, but after many conversations I have come to believe that when the 2nd mag was introduced it made the cars more consistent, more efficient, easier to tune, and more maintenance friendly (read easier on parts). After a short period more fuel was added and better blowers came to be and the troubles started all over again, but nobody I have talked to has ever said the second mag was a bad thing.
If the rules said you could run a second mag on the nostalgia cars would you do it? Even if you’re not allowed to change the blower or pump?
And as I have stated more than once, I could be wrong
Alan
rckymtn3
Nitro Member
I'm afraid they would just engineer something that accelerated like CRAZY for 700 ft and coast the remaining footage....
welcome to the Nestle Clorox Walmart AIG GM Whispernationals
Limit the manifold presure to 30 or 40 pounds and watch them find the sweet spot. They can run as many mags as they want but they can only pack so much in the cyl at 30 or 40 pounds of manifold pressure. They will quit driving the blower as hard if the presure is limited.
The rev limiter destroys motors and should be removed. It has the same effect as dropping cyl's. Makes a motor very unhappy.
The rev limiter destroys motors and should be removed. It has the same effect as dropping cyl's. Makes a motor very unhappy.
The reason NHRA allowed 90% again was the Crewchiefs said 85% was Hammering the Rods!
Nitrohelper
Nitro Member
Hook them up to a lie detector and then listen to a crew chief...
Cylinder pressure and detonation hammers the rods, that's why the rev-limiter was hurting stuff...
Nitrohelper
Nitro Member
I was one of the last guys at the big show to go to two mags in the 80s, I think they were a big change that increased the cost of operating a Nitro car...
We were the fourth FC to run in the 5.50s back then, and that was the only car with one 3.9 amp mag...
For nostalgia we run an eight amp mag in the F/Cs while the T/F guys run a 44 amp...
The difference is easy to see by the piston smoke in the lights...
My experience has been the only reason to run two mags is to burn more fuel volume, nothing else...
One mag would be a major change, but easy to tech...
Hook them up to a lie detector and then listen to a crew chief...
Cylinder pressure and detonation hammers the rods, that's why the rev-limiter was hurting stuff...
Jerry I talked to one of Doug Kalitta's crew members in '07-'08 God the years run together anymore. He was a Head guy and he told me flat out 85% was Brutal since they had to squeeze the compression tighter! Cut the Rod life by 2-3 runs easy.
I honestly think they are just way to heavy, you don't even need to race one to know that. Look at anything that moves at speed take a car and a truck for example, a car doing 100mph will stock quicker then a truck doing 100mph. Adding more weight actually I think makes things worse as the heavier something is the longer it takes to stop. Look at trains those things don't stop on a dime.
Nitrohelper
Nitro Member
Joe,
That's called cylinder pressure, it's the same reason they are only getting a couple of runs on a set of rods now because of the increased CFMs that are being produced by the blower inlet improvements, without increasing the overdrive...
The combination depends on fuel - air - spark, all have variables that in the right ratios make the motor happy, a tuners job is to match those three with the clutch ,weather and track conditions...
Suck - Squeeze - Bang - Blow - Go
Nitro --- how hard can it be
--- as a former famous alcohol tuner once said...
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Joe,
That's called cylinder pressure, it's the same reason they are only getting a couple of runs on a set of rods now because of the increased CFMs that are being produced by the blower inlet improvements, without increasing the overdrive...
The combination depends on fuel - air - spark, all have variables that in the right ratios make the motor happy, a tuners job is to match those three with the clutch ,weather and track conditions...
Suck - Squeeze - Bang - Blow - Go
Nitro --- how hard can it be
Well whatever 85% won't slow them a lick, they will simply pull out the 85% tune-ups and be right back where they were!
Nitrohelper
Nitro Member
What happens if you don't have any cars left for the last two rounds, how do you deal with the TV show?
To limit the engines for an entire weekend a "break rule" would have to come into play during eliminations...
