Lets fix the problem with the wheels flying off... (2 Viewers)

[Speed1288]

Ken, tethers have worked in other motorsports, but even I (as an admitted safety fanatic) think they would be overkill in this situation.

I think the steps I outlined above would fix the problem, we just need someone actively overseeing the situation and putting the steps in place, although I'm worried about this as I don't see that active guy currently in place in the NHRA.

Based on what comes out of the parts failure analysis, its possible that the staging wheel torque spot check is all that needs to be done.

Going back to some previous opinions, I think it would be counter to everyones best interest in this situation if the results of the analysis are kept secret, I don't see how that helps anybody.

Yea I guess, but it only takes one freak accident with a tire flying into the stands or something for a whole 'nother can of worms to open up, we learned alot from the wrecks before this and we can learn alot from this one too. Admittedly im clueless on the technical side of race cars, I can only drive them pretty well so your saftey suggestions and anyone elses are probably better than mine.

 

[nick name]

...When you take a look at the power and energy involved today with taking these lightweight cars and accelerating them that fast that quickly I think you start to find that you will need "engineers" to come in and take a look at the problems that start to occur.

DISCLAIMER - I say "engineers" because I think racers are engineers as well. Expierence in some cases is worth just as much as education.

But the "engineer" I am referring to is the guy (or girl) who is not a racer, but the guy (or girl) who has studied metallurgy all through college, or has learned all about aerodynamics in a lab. Or the person who developed how to bond those Goodyears to the track better, or keep them from flying apart at high speed.

...- Can you tell I'm an engineer?

That's an interesting point, especially in this case. As yet I haven't heard anyone mention the fact that Tim Wilkerson holds a degree in engineering. I've known Tim for a long time and can confidently state that every procedure or task in his pits meets the standards he learned in college.

But, as Tim himself states in the later article, he has no chance of finding the time to research or engineer a fix for the problem at this point in the season.

Which brings us to Paul Tichener. While there have been many times I've felt that the uninformed racing public was "picking at scabs" better left alone, this isn't one of them. I am a bit surprised at the reception that many have given his thoughtful posts.

And regardless how much I respect some of those who don't agree with Paul, everytime I hear the "don't worry, we're working on it" line I can't help but think of the Darrell Russell tragedy.

 

[Muddy]

In any case, even if this wasn't the cause for this failure, I think NHRA should be doing spot checks on wheel torques in the staging lanes as even the strongest studs will be in trouble if wheels aren't torqued right.

So we start out checking torque on the rear wheels, next comes checking the torque on the front wheels then its checking fuel lines to see if they are tight, oil lines next, valve covers etc. Two or three years down the road you'll need an extra hour or two between rounds for all the checks to be done. These crews are professionals who care about the car/driver and take pride in their work. They don't need to be treated like first graders. Do accidents happen and do people screw up? Sure they do. It could be a faulty torque wrench, a failure to torque them properly or any number of things. Let those directly involved find what caused the problem and take the corrective action. The rest of us that aren't directly involved should just shut up and let the professionals do their job. We carry on and offer opinions without having direct knowledge and it does no good. As a matter of fact the endless discussion reflects poorly on drag racing and makes us all look bad.

 

[nick name]

In a very welcome change from some instances in the past, the NHRA has already released a letter containing their preliminary findings.

That totally satifies any concerns I had about the incidents and there's no reason to continue the conversation.

 

[Bobby Bennett]

Here's the NHRA's preliminary findings ...

NHRA PROVIDES PRELIMINARY INFORMATION AFTER FUNNY CAR INCIDENTS IN CHARLOTTE, MEMPHIS

 

[Treeshaker]

In Memphis, NHRA tech officials examined the wheel components in the incident involving Dan Wilkerson and his Levi, Ray & Shoup Ford Mustang. After initial examinations and discussions with team owner, Tim Wilkerson, NHRA has determined that the wheel was not properly installed. “We believe that both wheels lug nuts were not properly torque due to misaligned wheel spacers,” said Wilkerson. “That contributed to the loss of the wheels during the run.”

This is the information that was available that was not public until now. Participants, manufacturers, and the NHRA did early on and now they have allowed you to know that human error caused the problem. Your "torque checker" would not have caught that because it took a burnout and 1/3rd of the run to dislodge the spacers from what was holding them up, hence making the lugnuts loose. Stronger studs would have only made the incident worse as they would have broken farther down track.

I feel strongly that those that want to make rules and govern an activity, should be deeply involved in the area that they want to govern. I also take offense to anyone that feels team members on the tour are unable to think for themselves and the sanctioning bodies do not care or are incapable.

FYI - our team had two members that were graduate engineers from Georgia Tech. We worked with the local university engineering department - Clemson. Murf McKinney works with Purdue's engineering department. Most manufacturers are affiliated with an engineering department. But these engineers get involved with the sport at a hands on level to understand the uniqueness of what is being done in the field.

 

[haagar]

In regards to wheel tethers, all forms of motorsports that I am aware of who mandate them use them to hold the hub to the chassis in event of a suspension failure. They do not use them to hold the wheel to the hub. See Fernando Alonso's incident early in the year at the Hungarian Grand Prix.

 

[Speed1288]

In regards to wheel tethers, all forms of motorsports that I am aware of who mandate them use them to hold the hub to the chassis in event of a suspension failure. They do not use them to hold the wheel to the hub. See Fernando Alonso's incident early in the year at the Hungarian Grand Prix.

Or the death of John Surtees, the F2 cars have FIA 2000 grade tethers and they failed, and in that case the the cooler that goes on outside of it was loose and the spinning of it worked the wheel nut loose and it came off, wasnt a hub failure or anything

 

[Rajunz]

..................I feel strongly that those that want to make rules and govern an activity, should be deeply involved in the area that they want to govern. I also take offense to anyone that feels team members on the tour are unable to think for themselves and the sanctioning bodies do not care or are incapable....................

Great post Virgil. Typical Mater thread running here with so many keyboard crew chiefs. Everyone here usually piles it on the NHRA, but it really is ridiculous to think that they don't care about the well being of the racer's lives.

I've spent some time working on an Alcohol Funny crew, and any time we mounted the slicks you had a torque wrench in hand. It was never done any other way, period. All of these teams that I've experienced have procedures for working on these cars, and not just ANYONE that walks in the pits is allowed to work on them.

And for what it's worth, I've also seen a friend's street car loose a wheel, because when it was torqued on it wasn't mounted flush.

 

[Tony]

The NHRA hasn't even issued a statement at this point saying they are looking into this situation. Last time this happened the general sentiment here was "don't worry about it, they're taking care of it".

Nothing happened then, and in absence of any statement from the NHRA about the problem, it appears nothing is happening now.

We got lucky and dodged two bullets from this problem (although one hit Tim Wilkerson's wallet pretty squarely), it will be irresponsible if the NHRA doesn't take some actions to fix this problem at this point.

Wow, looks like while Paul was blindly accusing the NHRA of ignoring Dan Wilkerson's incident, the NHRA was actually performing a behind-the-scenes investigaton.

How do you like your crow Paul, with salt and pepper?

 

[Paul]

How do you like your crow Paul, with salt and pepper?

Hey Tony, thanks for asking that so politely, throw some hot sauce on there for me.

Seriously though, its encouraging that the NHRA took some serious steps this time around, although as you probably know I feel they really should have done this when it happened with Toliver, we all were very lucky nobody got hurt this time around, but I'll take their actions this time as a sign of progress.

Fellas, you had to know this next question was coming though-

Wheel spacers aren't thought of as being such a hot idea even on street cars for exactly the same reason they apparently caused a problem in this case.

Now that the problem has been identified, I'd recommend taking a hard look at whether these kind of wheel spacers should be allowed, especially if they can be installed improperly as was apparently the case here.

It would seem that by having the wheel hub thickness be correct and the wheel offset correct that the spacers wouldn't be needed.

 

[willy]

In Memphis, NHRA tech officials examined the wheel components in the incident involving Dan Wilkerson and his Levi, Ray & Shoup Ford Mustang. After initial examinations and discussions with team owner, Tim Wilkerson, NHRA has determined that the wheel was not properly installed. “We believe that both wheels lug nuts were not properly torque due to misaligned wheel spacers,” said Wilkerson. “That contributed to the loss of the wheels during the run.”

This is the information that was available that was not public until now. Participants, manufacturers, and the NHRA did early on and now they have allowed you to know that human error caused the problem. Your "torque checker" would not have caught that because it took a burnout and 1/3rd of the run to dislodge the spacers from what was holding them up, hence making the lugnuts loose. Stronger studs would have only made the incident worse as they would have broken farther down track.

I feel strongly that those that want to make rules and govern an activity, should be deeply involved in the area that they want to govern. I also take offense to anyone that feels team members on the tour are unable to think for themselves and the sanctioning bodies do not care or are incapable.

FYI - our team had two members that were graduate engineers from Georgia Tech. We worked with the local university engineering department - Clemson. Murf McKinney works with Purdue's engineering department. Most manufacturers are affiliated with an engineering department. But these engineers get involved with the sport at a hands on level to understand the uniqueness of what is being done in the field.

Thanks Virgil.

So, in your professional opinion..was it an easy mistake for a crew to make? Lack of oversight? When a guy has been doing that for a length of time..how does that happen. I am really thankful that didn't happen at 900ft. I'm just wondering and not pointing fingers at all. When Dan says he saw them torque the wheels..were spacers in consideration?

Appreciate your insight.

 

[Tom]

Should the spacers be installed with a set screw to insure that they do not out of alignment? I have seen this on aircraft.

 

[Treeshaker]

Wheel hub designs vary quite a bit. Some are thin and some are thick, making the shoulder on the studs come into play when putting lug nuts on. Some teams use spacers behind the wheels, and most use aluminum washers of varying thicknesses between the wheel hub and nut. You do not want the nut to bottom out on the stud shoulder, even if the wheel seems tight.

Any part on the car can be installed improperly by anyone at anytime. It would be insane to eliminate any part because there is a possibility of error in installation. You try to have checks on every function, but errors can still be made. The cause is usually distraction from your job; a conversation, a late night/early morning, boredom, girlfriend/wife problems, and the list can go on forever. Everyone gets to experience a bad day from time to time.

This is no time to throw this person "under the bus" for his/her error, as I am sure they feel bad enough. I would think that Tim has addressed the situation with his team, and all other teams with their's.

And maybe we have learned that not all information is included in PR pieces.

 

[Al smith]

No alky car that I ever worked on had spacers. You would think with a spacer the further out on the stud the nut is the more stretch per given torque between the clamping face at the nut and the root of the stud in the hub. Plus with a spacer you are adding an additional shear plane. They should be using the correct length stud to begin with. I don't think it takes a degree at Clemson, Perdue or Georgia tech to realize that.

 

[Bob]

And maybe we have learned that not all information is included in PR pieces.

But Virgil, stop and think how short this thread would be without the conjecture and hypothesis of the 'mater brethern.
As long as the actual involved parties (i.e. the folks with their butt in the seat of the car, not the barca lounger) know of the cause and effect, we should be thankful. As far as Joe Keyboard having to know immediatly the findings.........the point is?
Thanks for your insight Virgil from an insiders view.

 

[Toejam]

paul, the yawn is because these message boards are calm and full of the latest news UNTIL something bad happens. then there are all kinds of people that have THE idea or stand up and say I KNOW WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE!. how about giving credit to the teams and guys behind the scene that ARE all over these situations. like i said above, i doubt ANYONE is saying "lets hope it doesn't happen again next week". Nancy didn't want speculation about the crash because she didn't know how daniel was, but now you are going to speculate on how, what and when something NEEDS to be done. why not just leave it to the guys that are responsable for these cars, because they have hands on knowledge of what happens to these cars.

That sounds like what happened after Scotts Death! Every racer couldn't wait to say how dangerous 1320 racing was, and how NHRA wouldn't listen to them? Give me a break...

 

[Paul]

No alky car that I ever worked on had spacers. You would think with a spacer the further out on the stud the nut is the more stretch per given torque between the clamping face at the nut and the root of the stud in the hub. Plus with a spacer you are adding an additional shear plane. They should be using the correct length stud to begin with. I don't think it takes a degree at Clemson, Perdue or Georgia tech to realize that.

Al is dead on here, to be candid (and I'm not just trying get people ticked off here), the words wheel spacers and top fuel cars (and alcohol cars too for that matter) really don't belong in the same sentence.

That's whey they're not allowed in any other forms of serious motorsports that I'm aware of.

I know its extra effort to make sure the hubs and wheel offsets are correct, but in this case it would have prevented a pretty nasty accident.

Discussions about safety never go well on this forum, and I knew that coming into this thread and had hesitations about even starting it. But on the flip side this accident scared the hell out of me and it was "deja vu" all over again as it had happened just a while ago with Toliver and it appeared as though nothing had been done since that time to try to a prevent it.

I wouldn't have felt right if I hadn't taken my best shot at making sure as many people as possible understood that something had to be done about this situation, and unfortunately for the readers here that don't like to see these kinds of posts, this is the only forum I'm aware of where your posts get reasonable exposure to people involved in the sport (well, I guess I could write a letter to the NHRA . . .).

Its understandable that racers don't like being told what to do and don't like the hassle of extra expenses from safety issues, I understand that as I've been on both sides of this issue.

On the flip side, if you don't have some reasonably empowered individuals in a racing organzation whose number one consuming focus is to make the racing as safe as is reasonably possible then incidents like the ones we just had are much more likely to occur.

This is not a fun job as they will take a lot of s*** from the racers about rules they think are not necessary. But I know for a fact that if the racers aren't complaining to some degree, this person isn't doing their job right. As the cars get faster and quicker and technology changes, the rules must be continually refined to have safety keep pace with the performance increases.

I know that the "old school" racers think this is all hooey, ie "leave us alone and let us figure this out ourselves". There was a time when that worked ok, but in today's world there is more than one reason why that's just not the best approach anymore, both from a safety and yes, even a PR aspect.

I don't see the person doing this proactive and highly committed safety function well right now in the NHRA. If it had been done well, we wouldn't have had this second incident with wheels flying off a car, and to be fully candid, things like wheel spacers would have have been phased out by now.

In addition we likely would have had shut down improvements done proactively, not reactively.

 

[GregM784]

Floating spacers are always dangerous!

Why this issue when a simple set screw or two to 'permanetly' anchor the spacer to either the hub or the wheel would fix the issue!

Are spacers a good idea? NO. I won't run them on my car. I have always considered them a bandaid to fix the improper wheel.

 

[clwill]

Are spacers a good idea? NO. I won't run them on my car. I have always considered them a bandaid to fix the improper wheel.

Agreed. I won't run them on a street car, let alone a race car...