So you're Alan Johnson (1 Viewer)

[Rat]

Patrick, quit contradicting yourself, it's confusung for all of us!

John Force, Whit Bazemore, those guys lived in the back of pick up trucks at truck stops, and ate Vienna Sausage from a can. Most drivers today don't work on their cars, stay at nice hotels or coaches and eat steak dinners. Big difference.

Also, for those that don't know, go do some research on Whit Bazemore's early years of racing, he gave EVERYTHING for his dream.

First off, there is no contradicting anywhere. These nitro drivers that come from families that are well off and field a nitro car or drivers that seem to make it in a big nitro ride without much independent effort in their career I agree with. I never said a word about Whit. I know Whit personally, he gave up everything he had for the chance to make it big and still gave things up just to stay big in his career.

Nobody said Force was initally rich. It was more of a link to the 2nd generation, yes, they will NEVER have to go through what Force did to make himself a name. I never contradicted myself because again I am going to say it is the right of no one to say that whether the racer is rich (money to buy a ride or from family) does not mean they have less passion or never had to work for the ride.

There is no contradiction from me Lance, so I am gonna ignore that. Read her post and realize what she's saying and you'll get half of it. Read between the lines and you get all of what she's saying.
1. I respect her opinion, but I do not value any of it. She has no idea exactly what agreements were made personally about the people she speaks of.
2. Expressing that being a hired gun with no struggles means that they are not as die-hard about the sport as the independents who pay everything. The only answer to that line is that they have less stress not paying all the bills. Think about it, she never said "less passion" but "not as big a die-hard" is really saying less passion. I disagree 100% with that. You wanna see how much passion a driver has for their job, look at their reaction time.

 

[vegasnitro]

You wanna see how much passion a driver has for their job, look at their reaction time.

Huh? So reaction time is the measure of a man's heart/passion for his sport? So I guess Cory Mac, WJ and many others have no passion for their profession? Whatever ...

 

[Rat]

Huh? So reaction time is the measure of a man's heart/passion for his sport? So I guess Cory Mac, WJ and many others have no passion for their profession? Whatever ...

Yes I will support my statement because 2 drivers you just named are consistantly inconsistant on the tree. They both try hard and most times there late or lose on a holeshot, but both have cut really good lights at times this year. I further support my statement because I do not think you will find a driver unpasssionate about doing this. A driver who is always late, never cutting a good light and not caring has no passion. I can't be proved wrong. Jason Line I remember when he started he had no passion and was awful on the tree due to missing his family and being on the road to much. He has found passion since then (05-06).

Seriously how can i be wrong, if a racer is passionate about driving, are they not always going to be trying to cut a good light? So, I say that when you find a racer that never ever comes up with a good light and cares less, the passion is dead. I can't name one drag racer who has no passion for driving. This brings me back to my original arguement, how can anyone say you may have less passion depending on the path you took to drive a nitro car? It's not possible and that's what she said in another way.

 

[MM]

Jason Line I remember when he started he had no passion

I can't name one drag racer who has no passion for driving.

And you say you never contradict yourself? Patrick have you ever spent any extended time around a racecar? There are about 300 different things that can effect with how quickly a car reacts, and only one of them has to do with how quickly the drivers foot moves.

 

[Rajunz]

And you say you never contradict yourself? Patrick have you ever spent any extended time around a racecar? There are about 300 different things that have to do with how quickly a car reacts, and only one of them has to do with how quickly the drivers foot moves.

Martijn Joon stated one thing that is right on. As much as he loves Drag Racing, it is definitely like an addiction to some people and they will do whatever it takes to race, period. In the late 80's I met Larry Reep and started working with him on his "Grim Reeper" Alcohol Funny Car team. That guy lived for his race car, no matter what it took. That's all we did, work on the car, every night. Build a frame, paint the body, he built the engines, in the winter we would rebuild the trailer, etc., etc., etc. "Thrash Week" is what we called it the week before the races. We would work all night, go to our day jobs, then work again the next night, non stop. It was so much work, with no pay, but it was a blast. I did it because I loved it, but sooner than later, I burnt out, after just a few short years. Mean while, Larry found more guys that were eager to race with him, and live that Drag Racing dream. They all would burn out too eventually. Larry is in his 70's now and is still racing, it's his life. He's a different breed, he's a Jim Dunn among racers.

 

[clwill]

Patrick, I don't know if you have, but you really need to drive a car before you make these kind of rash generalizations.

As MM notes, reaction time involves a lot of things beside the physical release of the brake or button. There are a zillion reasons why someone may be early/late. And sometimes they aren't particularly quick on purpose. They could be especially deep or shallow staged, because that's what the team/crew chief needs at that time, for example. If you had to look at a number, don't look at RT, look at Leaves First. At least that is situationally valid.

But most importantly, I don't know a single person who, when they roll up to the line, isn't trying very hard to do their best. Maybe they've had a bad day, maybe too much coffee, maybe their team is running out of money, maybe they blinked, maybe a lot of things. But everybody is dedicated for those few seconds.

Finally, please, if you do start to drive, let us all know. I'd love to line up in the other lane. If only to be amazed at your reaction time prowess.

 

[Rat]

And you say you never contradict yourself? Patrick have you ever spent any extended time around a racecar? There are about 300 different things that can effect with how quickly a car reacts, and only one of them has to do with how quickly the drivers foot moves.

I'm aware of that and the 2 pieces you just used against me are not even fair to use cause i even wrote Line found passion 1 line after it.

 

[Rat]

Patrick, I don't know if you have, but you really need to drive a car before you make these kind of rash generalizations.

As MM notes, reaction time involves a lot of things beside the physical release of the brake or button. There are a zillion reasons why someone may be early/late. And sometimes they aren't particularly quick on purpose. They could be especially deep or shallow staged, because that's what the team/crew chief needs at that time, for example. If you had to look at a number, don't look at RT, look at Leaves First. At least that is situationally valid.

But most importantly, I don't know a single person who, when they roll up to the line, isn't trying very hard to do their best. Maybe they've had a bad day, maybe too much coffee, maybe their team is running out of money, maybe they blinked, maybe a lot of things. But everybody is dedicated for those few seconds.

Finally, please, if you do start to drive, let us all know. I'd love to line up in the other lane. If only to be amazed at your reaction time prowess.

I will not even start on the last line of what you said, I never said anything about me anywhere on this discussion so I have nothing to prove cause I'm not trying to prove anything.

I know technology is alot of the reason why rt's appear not to be great or are too great when not expected. You know i'm writing this book, I been studying the careers of every driver, Leaves first stat is a major major stat and I been looking at that and it's passion right there, there's been driver's than have excellent lights and horrible records for leaving first. That stat alone leaves the story incomplete as well.

Im not saying I know anything, I never said I did. Stats due not lie, I been knee deep in all of em. I know especially in PS and PSB rt's get ruined with tire spin or boggin. Mike and Chris please dont take it as concrete that I meant that a driver's foot is the only factor in R/T, i thought it was implied that I know better. Can you understand that I am saying that when stats for a driver's r/t's show a pattern and are either getting better or worse throughout their career that it's usually the driver responsible for that gain or loss a majority of the time? When stats show a pattern over several season's, yes i buy that the foot is not the only fact playing a role, but a majority has got to be the driver's psych (passion).

 

[clwill]

Stats due not lie, I been knee deep in all of em.

There's your problem. Stats DO lie. Or at least don't tell the whole story. That's what Mike and I are trying to say.

 

[mike]

There's your problem. Stats DO lie. Or at least don't tell the whole story. That's what Mike and I are trying to say.

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."
- Mark Twain's

really, anybody that is that hung up on stats should follow baseball, not drag racing (or motor sports in general)...

 

[Gerda Joon]

OMG!! I can not believe the reactions I am reading. Are you guys kidding me First of all I have not insulted anybody. I have the highest respect for everybody who is putting their lives in the drivers seat of a Top Fuel car. I work on our own racecar, I am standing next to it on the startline and NO I will never ever drive one of these animals. All I wondered was that if John Force still was a truck driver would his daughters still be driving a Funny Car?

I like wat Patrick said: You wanna see how much passion a driver has for their job, look at their reaction time.
Did you know that Lex never lost a race on a holeshot and never pulled a red light on raceday in 30 years of racing???

Maybe it is an idea to invite Patrick and Michael over here in our shop for a season and learn them what it takes to run a Top Fuel Team. Because if you don't know.............

 

[NitroChrisUK]

the think the point Gerda was making is, would certain Drivers who are out there at the moment with the help of Finances created by their parents/Others have made the same effort to be a part of the sport if they had Nothing or limited to begin with. i do not see that as an insult to those drivers i think it is more of an observation.

it all depends on the individuals situation. some may want to Build everything up from the ground no matter what to make their dream come true. while others who may be a better off money wise may not want to deal with everything but would do everything in their power to Drive


back to the Topic

I Would Love to see Brady Kalivoda Drive would be greatto see someone else given the opportunity to rise up the ranks. also i would love to see J.R Todd back driving. and from a European Point of View how awesome would it be to see a European run the NHRA Tour Full Time? the answer is .. Very Awesome.

 

[Joker]

You wanna see how much passion a driver has for their job, look at their reaction time.

I have heard alot of stupid $hit in my lifetime Patrick, but this just might top the list. You never cease to amaze me anymore. Some people dont have a clue.

 

[Heavyhauler]

I'd be careful about basing you driver selections on reaction times alone. Because there are drivers and there are drivers, best example Snake. Prudhomme is simply the best driver I have ever seen, his feel for a car, the melding of the car and driver were amazing to watch.
The mental conditioning and ability to stay focused are all a result of his natural athletic ability. Antron, is in that same league as was Bonin and Ongias.
The biggest factor is in my opinion and borrowing a baseball term, is your driver "clutch"? Dose he/she know how to win.
Winning is a state of mind and not everyone has it. Snake and Force have it. Others out there that come to mind Pat Austin and Mike Ferderer and there are many more and these are just examples.

 

[Rat]

I like wat Patrick said: You wanna see how much passion a driver has for their job, look at their reaction time.
Did you know that Lex never lost a race on a holeshot and never pulled a red light on raceday in 30 years of racing???

Justin your gonna take a shot at me based on not really thinking about what I said, it's more than words. She understands the point I am trying to make, I know the car can be responsible for alot of R/T variation, but as I said and I will stress it to you again, A OVERWHELMING MAJORITY in a pattern of good r/t or bad r/t over a couple seasons ARE given by a drivers foot. It's not the car every run, every season. I don't know why you guys dont understand that. You guys are racers, you should get it. You can agree with me a majority of the time the reaction time is on nobody but you.

I never said anything about anyone being a good or bad driver due to r/t, all I said is that and again you racers should be able to relate, you know when the passion is there when you try and cut a good light and you know it's still there if you try hard and cut a light that ends up being bad when you know the car did not react right, and has there ever been a time you cut a bad light out of no passion? That's all I said, Driver Passion can be easily linked to reaction time. Gerda gets what I am saying, take how Lex never lost on a holeshot, that's passion right there cause he knew every run he had to bring his best to the line, he's lucky to never have lost on a holeshot because i agree the car can throw a curveball.

Reation time is all about passion and the focused mind of the driver. I dare to say some drivers are not diggin as deep for a light as others due. When you cut light's between an .80 and 120 in tf for years, it's not the car, it's the driver.

Now I am a fan of this driver, I am not taking shots at him, I am just showing you all a pattern I feel backs up my statement. Look at Brandon Bernstein's stat, maybe this will get you guys to ease up on my point: Leaves firsts for career and holeshots:
2003: 33.3%
2004: 30%
2005: 30.4%
2006: 41.5%
2007: 32%
2008: 31.9%
2009: 63.4%
2010: 56.8%
2011: 51.3%
Overall Career: 41.5%, He 1/3 when it comes to winning/losing on a holeshot in the final and he's 3/16 on elimination day on overall holeshots. It can't be the car in all 19 situations! And no, those holeshots were not good lights against a driver with a better light in the 19 either.

2009-2011 has been the best years of his career for r/t. Your gonna tell me the car played a role on those numbers every season and not the driver? I see it as something mentally happend to Brandon in 2009 that let him become alot more focused on r/t maybe his overall confidence improved. These stats don't lie, give or take the car on a few runs, a pattern such as this sit with the driver.

Now take Antron Brown: (TF Career Only)
2008: 59.2%
2009: 70.3%
2010: 76.9%
2011: 78.3%!
Overall Career: 70.7% 34/16 on holeshots on sunday, 2/0 in finals with holeshot situations.


Are you gonna tell me that antron vs. brandon that the driver does not influence an overwhelming majority? Are you gonna tell me that Antron has had a better car in his career while Brandon has had one that would throw lights? I don't buy it.

 

[funny1]

1st choice--Linda Lovelace........she will no dought blow a few but she wont choke on the big ones

2nd choice-Danica Patrick with Go Daddy money

 

[clwill]

Patrick, I find it amazing that you write for a living. I had to read some of that rant three times to figure out what you were saying...

That aside, the only way to red light in a TF car is to guess. They just don't react fast enough to red light any other way.

As for holeshots (like everything else we're discussing), there are things other than the driver that go into a holeshot loss. Yes, the driver has to leave late, but the car also has to contribute. The run has to be a loss, to be a holeshot loss. If the car is strong enough, it will make up any RT deficit, and the run won't be a loss. Lex runs a strong car, in a series where he stands out by a significant amount over his peers. Not many losses, let alone holeshot losses.

You guys are also completely forgetting that many things other than this amorphous "passion" go into reaction times. Like innate ability (genetics), like eyesight (my RTs got much better with better glasses), like car setup, like distractions, like money for more practice laps, and so on.

For example, Patrick, you cite Brandon who had a marked change. He got married around then, no? Changed long time crew chief around then? NHRA changed the rules about practice days around then, no? The Bernsteins lost a long time sponsor around then, no? Who KNOWS what contributed. I know for a fact you don't.

In short, your assertion that people don't have good reaction times because they don't want it badly enough it just pooh. You can't simply "will" your way to better lights. And I find it offensive that you'll sit behind your keyboards and pontificate about other people's "passion" -- about what's in someone else's mind.

 

[MM]

It can't be the car in all 19 situations!

Yes it can and let me give you an example of how. Brandon uses a McKinney chassis and Antron uses a Hadman. The amount of throttle travel and the length of the throttle cable differs by chassis design. Also, the travel of the throttle can differ based upon driver preference. Some drivers like more throttle travel because it can make the car easier to pedal if necessary. Some drivers like shorter throttle travel because it improves reaction times. It's all driver preference. The difference in throttles between the TF car I work on and the NFC I have driven are night and day. Since I do non-throttle stop burnouts in the NFC, I need to be able to work the throttle more, thus I need to have more travel. I guarantee you this is doing me no favors when it comes to my reaction times.

I'm not sure what makes you think you are the authority of knowing the level of passion a driver has. It borders on disrespect and sheer ignorance for you to think you can speak of how passionate a driver is based solely on their reaction times. You keep saying you're not sure how we racers don't understand the argument that you're making, and accept it as overwhelmingly factual and valid. Well I can't speak for anyone else, I will say this. It's because you're argument makes absolutely zero sense to me.

 

[Nunz]

This thread has gone way off track, and I find it hard to really even read through all of the posts. Couple simple things: If Force never went drag racing, pretty good bet that his daughters would have never even seen a track, let alone drive fuel cars. Just like, if my dad wasn't a Comp racer when I was a little kid, I may never gotten bit by the sport. A good percentage of today's drag racers are 2nd & 3rd generation. Like in every other aspect of life, some people have more money than others, some racers come from families that have the means to race at the highest level. Doesn't make them bad, spoiled, or not passionate. Look at Morgan Lucas. He seems very appreciative and extremely passionate about racing. Oh wait, maybe not, let me check his RT stats...

 

[Huge]

I think some on here are blowing this way out of proporton. I do not think that Gerda was trying to insult anyone. Lex and Gerda are very nice people and we love having them come by our pit to say hi everytime they are here. Infact I even hauled their Top Fuel car in one of Worshams haulers, and they treated me with nothing but respect. I would love to see Lex and Gerda get a chance to return to the United States and race.