has become similar to the fuel classes in that, there's usually just enough cars to have a 16 car show, with a few extra. I'm not sure how many years ago, but it doesn't seem like that many, that I used to be amazed that 30-40 PS cars would show up to qualify. And the Johnsons are absent again. I'm absolutely amazed with how far they've come with 500in. on gas, but, since the fans leave the stands after nitro cars anyway, is there any reason to not re-invent Pro Stock? Maybe come up with a formula that's less cost-prohibitive and create new fan interest? PS started as the premiere door class that showcased the factory muscle cars. Well, we are living in a unique time in history where the factories are building incredible muscle-cars, maybe now's the time to capitalize on that. Just spitballing here, kinda bored since I couldn't get away to E-town this weekend...
Pro Stock... (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Nunz
- Start date
There are enough cars out there, but you have to spend so much to compete nowadays that they have turned the cars into moneypits. If you track the class history it seems that around 1991-2 is when the decline started. Legitimate team cars (started by WJ with Don Beverly) showed almost immediate returns, so Wayne County pairs Alderman and Geoffrion in 1993. Now there are two teams that are completely dominating.
Now comes Steve Schmidt, who's making awesome power and he decides it may be profitable to lease engines for a million a year...Yates does the same thing in 1994 with a team car (Chuck Harris) and Harris becomes an instant top ten and contending team, even won Columbus!
After that, the guys who were competitive with their own engines were falling behind data and power-wise and some left for that budding Outlaw Street racing or some just retired.
The rest were left with dog motors that were maybe a tenth off the pack and it just kept evolving till today.
The rich spent more and the mid packers fell behind and with so many more classes of racing to choose from for fast door cars, why "waste" the cash.
A buddy of mine drove Pro Stock a few years ago and it was cost him roughly 25K per race (8 races), to lease a team and a testing motor, that was down 15HP. He won two rounds, but for 200K?
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There are enough cars out there, but you have to spend so much to compete nowadays that they have turned the cars into moneypits. If you track the class history it seems that around 1991-2 is when the decline started. Legitimate team cars (started by WJ with Don Beverly) showed almost immediate returns, so Wayne County pairs Alderman and Geoffrion in 1993. Now there are two teams that are completely dominating.
Now comes Steve Schmidt, who's making awesome power and he decides it may be profitable to lease engines for a million a year...Yates does the same thing in 1994 with a team car (Chuck Harris) and Harris becomes an instant top ten and contending team, even won Columbus!
After that, the guys who were competitive with their own engines were falling behind data and power-wise and some left for that budding Outlaw Street racing or some just retired.
The rest were left with dog motors that were maybe a tenth off the pack and it just kept evolving till today.
The rich spent more and the mid packers fell behind and with so many more classes of racing to choose from for fast door cars, why "waste" the cash.
A buddy of mine drove Pro Stock a few years ago and it was cost him roughly 25K per race (8 races), to lease a team and a testing motor, that was down 15HP. He won two rounds, but for 200K?
I'll never forget 1988 Gatornationals, there was like 40 something cars to qualify for 16 car field.
There are enough cars out there, but you have to spend so much to compete nowadays that they have turned the cars into moneypits. If you track the class history it seems that around 1991-2 is when the decline started. Legitimate team cars (started by WJ with Don Beverly) showed almost immediate returns, so Wayne County pairs Alderman and Geoffrion in 1993. Now there are two teams that are completely dominating.
Now comes Steve Schmidt, who's making awesome power and he decides it may be profitable to lease engines for a million a year...Yates does the same thing in 1994 with a team car (Chuck Harris) and Harris becomes an instant top ten and contending team, even won Columbus!
After that, the guys who were competitive with their own engines were falling behind data and power-wise and some left for that budding Outlaw Street racing or some just retired.
The rest were left with dog motors that were maybe a tenth off the pack and it just kept evolving till today.
The rich spent more and the mid packers fell behind and with so many more classes of racing to choose from for fast door cars, why "waste" the cash.
A buddy of mine drove Pro Stock a few years ago and it was cost him roughly 25K per race (8 races), to lease a team and a testing motor, that was down 15HP. He won two rounds, but for 200K?
Do you think there would be more fan interest if the cars looked like they came from the factory?
Indy in 1996 had 51 PS'ers! That's the most I ever saw at a race.
Unfortunately there are two types of race fans that remain. The smaller group is on the older side...they can appreciate any car going down the track that took work to go fast. From Stock to Fuel. The second is on the younger side looking for quick entertainment. Meaning loud, fast and parts flying in the air. This only happens with the Fuel cars.
The failed Import classes are a good example of this. They were fairly stock looking (looked like new showroom cars) yet weren't loud with parts flying through the air. The deal didn't work. The older generation didn't associate with rice burners even though the work to get the cars going fast was impressive. The younger group wasn't attracted because of earlier mentioned reasons. Pro Stock is a class caught in the middle. At races without PS bike, they are the slowest of the "Pro" classes. They are fast yet not after watching the Fuel cars. They don't have smoke off the tires, cars sideways and blowers banging so they get looked over. You could make them all look completely stock and have them run a half a second quicker and it would be the same outcome unfortunately. I think its a great class, the work and thought involved is pretty impressive. But for the new generation(s) of spectators, the class isn't going to get much attention.
Look at Pro Mod their problem is pretty much the same as PS but on a different level. All they are is a TAFC with doors...some running a turbo and others with nitrous or a blower. You will see new cars and sometimes old. I think it was a better class before it became a cookie cutter body class. You see more "New" bodies on cars yet at a national event the stands look like dead. I hate to see it but the bottom line is door car racing for Joe Average spectator at a national event isn't popular.
A couple of years ago with the old ADRL you could argue that wasn't true. But you start charging attendance and you get stands that are 25 to maybe 50% full. Before they charged to attend the stands were packed but I bet half of the spectators had no idea there was a race going on around them.
PS has gotten so expensive that the class is killing itself. There are a handful of guys that are sharp enough to give the class a go, but financially it doesn't make sense. Why would a sharp outsider work his ass off, spend every waking minute working on cylinder heads, the dyno and at the track testing to get practically no TV time to show a prospective sponsor? Its not going to work. Or say you have a guy with alot of brains and money. Because he has both, he will definitely question why to spend more time/money on his engine and track testing when he is happy running Comp or any other class. This weekend WJ and KJ aren't at Etown. The market is one of the largest in NHRA's schedule. You would think if the Johnsons have even the smallest potential sponsor on the hook, they would be there. Yet they aren't because I have to imagine they realize the coverage they can show a potential sponsor isn't going to make them jump onto the side of their cars. There aren't many of the racers with brains and money left running PS. I don't mean that in a negative way. But you look at the class over the last 20 some years..hell since its inception, its mainly been self made business men running the class. There was a reason for this. The class didn't offer as good of an opportunity as the Fuel classes for a Clay Millican, Whit Bazemore etc to give it a go without solid self funding. You find many Comp/SS/Stock guys that would love to be racing PS now, but realize the chances are like a snowball in hell unless they find the money. V Gaines, Coughlin AJ etc is the main stay in the class now. Obviously very sharp men but without their self funding wouldn't be racing PS. Another problem with this is that type of guy is getting older and older and you don't see as many coming up to replace them. On a side note, granted Edwards does have good backing, he is still on the older model of racing. He found the money and is hauling the mail. But again look at the sheet today and there aren't many that have outside funding.
It sucks, like I said earlier I love the class. I spent the first twelve years out of college working on mainly PS teams making electronics for them. I worked on one TF car and got a very good education on how things work. It was the best times of my life yet I could see it wasn't going anywhere. Especially when GM and Mopar really got out of it and the class subsidies ended.
The failed Import classes are a good example of this. They were fairly stock looking (looked like new showroom cars) yet weren't loud with parts flying through the air. The deal didn't work. The older generation didn't associate with rice burners even though the work to get the cars going fast was impressive. The younger group wasn't attracted because of earlier mentioned reasons. Pro Stock is a class caught in the middle. At races without PS bike, they are the slowest of the "Pro" classes. They are fast yet not after watching the Fuel cars. They don't have smoke off the tires, cars sideways and blowers banging so they get looked over. You could make them all look completely stock and have them run a half a second quicker and it would be the same outcome unfortunately. I think its a great class, the work and thought involved is pretty impressive. But for the new generation(s) of spectators, the class isn't going to get much attention.
Look at Pro Mod their problem is pretty much the same as PS but on a different level. All they are is a TAFC with doors...some running a turbo and others with nitrous or a blower. You will see new cars and sometimes old. I think it was a better class before it became a cookie cutter body class. You see more "New" bodies on cars yet at a national event the stands look like dead. I hate to see it but the bottom line is door car racing for Joe Average spectator at a national event isn't popular.
A couple of years ago with the old ADRL you could argue that wasn't true. But you start charging attendance and you get stands that are 25 to maybe 50% full. Before they charged to attend the stands were packed but I bet half of the spectators had no idea there was a race going on around them.
PS has gotten so expensive that the class is killing itself. There are a handful of guys that are sharp enough to give the class a go, but financially it doesn't make sense. Why would a sharp outsider work his ass off, spend every waking minute working on cylinder heads, the dyno and at the track testing to get practically no TV time to show a prospective sponsor? Its not going to work. Or say you have a guy with alot of brains and money. Because he has both, he will definitely question why to spend more time/money on his engine and track testing when he is happy running Comp or any other class. This weekend WJ and KJ aren't at Etown. The market is one of the largest in NHRA's schedule. You would think if the Johnsons have even the smallest potential sponsor on the hook, they would be there. Yet they aren't because I have to imagine they realize the coverage they can show a potential sponsor isn't going to make them jump onto the side of their cars. There aren't many of the racers with brains and money left running PS. I don't mean that in a negative way. But you look at the class over the last 20 some years..hell since its inception, its mainly been self made business men running the class. There was a reason for this. The class didn't offer as good of an opportunity as the Fuel classes for a Clay Millican, Whit Bazemore etc to give it a go without solid self funding. You find many Comp/SS/Stock guys that would love to be racing PS now, but realize the chances are like a snowball in hell unless they find the money. V Gaines, Coughlin AJ etc is the main stay in the class now. Obviously very sharp men but without their self funding wouldn't be racing PS. Another problem with this is that type of guy is getting older and older and you don't see as many coming up to replace them. On a side note, granted Edwards does have good backing, he is still on the older model of racing. He found the money and is hauling the mail. But again look at the sheet today and there aren't many that have outside funding.
It sucks, like I said earlier I love the class. I spent the first twelve years out of college working on mainly PS teams making electronics for them. I worked on one TF car and got a very good education on how things work. It was the best times of my life yet I could see it wasn't going anywhere. Especially when GM and Mopar really got out of it and the class subsidies ended.
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Luke Nieuwhof
Nitro Member
The thing that Pro Stock always had going for it racing entertainment wise was the closeness of the racing - but it kinda has a problem now that Top Fuel is basically matching that closeness.
I guess racers and teams need to decide, do they like it where it is now? A lot of them probably do else they wouldn't be racing there. But is that best for growth of the class into the future?
Do we need to mandate in some of the entertainment factor described above? Smaller tyres? No wheelie bars? The latter especially would probably mean a total replacement of cars in the category and I'm not sure that's the best thing.
It's between a rock and a hard place really. To get sponsors you need the attention of people. To get that attention probably means some changes.
It is definitely an odd thing that fields in Australia (using the small block model) are roughly the same size as those in the US at most national events now!
I guess racers and teams need to decide, do they like it where it is now? A lot of them probably do else they wouldn't be racing there. But is that best for growth of the class into the future?
Do we need to mandate in some of the entertainment factor described above? Smaller tyres? No wheelie bars? The latter especially would probably mean a total replacement of cars in the category and I'm not sure that's the best thing.
It's between a rock and a hard place really. To get sponsors you need the attention of people. To get that attention probably means some changes.
It is definitely an odd thing that fields in Australia (using the small block model) are roughly the same size as those in the US at most national events now!
and isn't ANDRA Pro Stock a 8 Car field?
Reese
Nitro Member
Great post Toby, put me in the smaller group.
4g63rwd
Nitro Member
Our Import classes failed because we were 100% marketed incorrectly and to the wrong fanbase. When the "sponsorships" and the money showed up, it was death to the sport. We've now gotten rid of the former promoter and Import racing is very healthy (and even growing in some areas) right now without the NHRA's tentacles trying to wrap around us.
and I'd rather watch Team Puerto Rico vs Team USA with Jorge Lazcano 350Z and Jorge "Oso" Juarbe in El Humilde Toyota along with La Otra Rotary and Hugo Umpierre on the mic "Estamos Gozando!"
Luke Nieuwhof
Nitro Member
16 car field now, has been for a few years. Since that move the category has gone from strength to strength.
4g63rwd
Nitro Member
Come to Atco July 19-21 for the Pan American Nationals! Puerto Rico vs USA, where all the cars you mentioned (and then some) will be there! We're hoping to make it onto Team USA! Last year 60 of us attempted to make the 16 car Team USA field, with the bump spot being a healthy 7.51! The fire marshal stopped letting people in on both Saturday and Sunday because Atco was so full!!
Toby, since the average age at Natl. events is over 40, what do you consider the Younger side? I think the Top Sportman class has pulled the lower budget Pro stock guys away! You can run just as fast for less than half the cost!
Ice Bucket
Nitro Member
PS has been has been on a sad decline since the mid 90's for reasons posted above and without big change I see the trend continuing in all pro classes. When NHRA was a mix of brains vs. $ it added a lot of excitement. Now it is just pure money without the chance for low buck guys to "out smart" the big teams. I might get blasted for this, but I think the best thing for PS would be spec heads and manifolds. R&D is the biggest expense in PS engines and guys just cant afford to experiment. I don't think this would hurt the integrity of the class or the engine builder. There would still be thousands of areas for guys to tweak, but it would eliminate the largest expense and put everyone at an equal starting point. With spec heads and manifolds, WJ, Stanfield and RM (if they chose to get back in to it) would be able to go toe to toe with the deep pockets and not be 20-40 HP behind. You know the guys I just mentioned have the skill, just not the budget for experimenting. Spec EFI would be good for this package, but I kinda think the out dated carbs are cool. TS might be stealing some guys that would want to run PS, but I just cant get in to a class with automatics and breakouts! Racing has always been and will always be a rich mans sport, but right now it has priced it self out of the market.
my friends call me Zappy
Nitro Member
You make some good points. I think part of the problem is, they have got too exotic, too far from the class name. Lets face it, the closest they come to Detriot is on the freeway on the way to Norwalk.
Today they are just gas funny cars.It used to be "win on Sunday, sell on Monday." But you & I can't buy a 500 in. or clutch automatic trans, or 4brl carbs. Put the "stock" back in P/S...
Make them run a cu. in. thats available in that body...
Auto Trans or Stick...(not both)
Fi. (no carbs)...
Nothin wrong with all out exotic door cars, but we have Top Sportsman & Pro-Mod for that. Let P/S be what it was intended,"professional stocker".
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It is interesting looking at guy who used to race in pro stock, Warren Johnson is one of the last of them. Where pro stock racing was their life 24/7, if they weren't at the track racing they were back at the shop brainstorming and working on stuff. They probably even dreamed up ideas while sleeping.
Bob Glidden was a perfect example pro stock racing was his life. It must have been like getting paid to just do what you do everyday, unlike a job where you are paid to work but then come home and do other stuff.
Just read a quote from Bob Glidden saying that it started going down hill for him when he hired people who weren't family. He would hire outside people and they would work for him then jump to another team taking his secrets with them.
Bob Glidden was a perfect example pro stock racing was his life. It must have been like getting paid to just do what you do everyday, unlike a job where you are paid to work but then come home and do other stuff.
Just read a quote from Bob Glidden saying that it started going down hill for him when he hired people who weren't family. He would hire outside people and they would work for him then jump to another team taking his secrets with them.
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Project Paladin
Nitro Member
Except the Gassers of yesterday, for the most part used older body styles with the latest engine techknowledgies of the time. It's the reverse in todays PS class, new bodies with old engine techknowledgies.
