Monostrut vs Wing Struts (1 Viewer)

jimbo

Nitro Member
With all the talk over the momostrut issue the question is - is it more safe that standard struts? If memory serve me correctly in the early 2000's the TF crashes (Dixon, Shoe and others) seemed to be caused by the struts actually collapsing and therefore unloading the rear of the car. Stronger and redesigned struts were made madatory soon after. The more recent failures of struts / wings are possibly being caused by tire failure.
With either design -struts or monostrut it would seem that the wing would be damaged and in turn unload the rear of the car. The monostrut is said to be able to help keep the car more under control in this situation. Is the wing in a different location - in relation to the tires so as the debris would not stike the wing?
Could someone enlighten us on this situation? I don't believe this has been asked before but if it has pardon me.
thank you.
 
Jim
I am not going to comment on the standard strut vs. mono yet... As far as wing location, my rule book is in my trailer, but the rear wing can be no further back from the centerline of the rear end to a number of inches set by the NHRA... Same with the height of the wing from the ground to the top of the wing...
 
OK, so no further BACK than X measurement from axle center, but what about FORWARD? I wish John Buttera and Pat Foster could weigh in please- on the Barry Setzer TF car, the wing was literally right behind the injector... Why was that, and could it work in todays application? :confused:
 
Martin
That is a good question... The rule came into effect because some were putting the wing back as far as possible for a lever effect...
 
Ray... Are you gonna make any of the divisionals down here in AZ? Lots to talk about... got your PM- you're an interesting dude!!:D
 
LOL-:D Not this year Martin... Maybe next with NITRO in the tank... Thanks Bro!!;)
 
With all the talk over the momostrut issue the question is - is it more safe that standard struts? If memory serve me correctly in the early 2000's the TF crashes (Dixon, Shoe and others) seemed to be caused by the struts actually collapsing and therefore unloading the rear of the car. Stronger and redesigned struts were made madatory soon after. The more recent failures of struts / wings are possibly being caused by tire failure.
With either design -struts or monostrut it would seem that the wing would be damaged and in turn unload the rear of the car. The monostrut is said to be able to help keep the car more under control in this situation. Is the wing in a different location - in relation to the tires so as the debris would not stike the wing?
Could someone enlighten us on this situation? I don't believe this has been asked before but if it has pardon me.
thank you.

Dixons crash where the wing came down was due to a tire. Tony Shoes crash was the result of the top wing itself coming off, not the actual strut. The last couple wing strut failures I can remember was Joe Amato and Gary Ormsby in 1989. Amato had the chute coming out right at the time the wing broke, so he was ok, but Ormsby had the car go over on him. After that they mandated the -X- pattern.

With the monostrut...What if the tire comes off, takes off the top wing, and hits and twists the monostrut, ethier the cover, or the entire thing, and makes it a sideways rudder at 300mph??? It will turn the back end of that car around pretty darn fast. Might happen, might not, but it's possible.
 
OK, so no further BACK than X measurement from axle center, but what about FORWARD? I wish John Buttera and Pat Foster could weigh in please- on the Barry Setzer TF car, the wing was literally right behind the injector... Why was that, and could it work in todays application? :confused:
The farther back the wing is, the bigger the multiplying effect of the downforce on the tires due to the lever effect as Ray mentioned. You'd have a hard time getting a crewchief to move the wing forward without a rule change. From what Big Daddy was saying years ago, one of the biggest advantages of the monostrut was the rudder effect at high speed. Keeping the car straighter is always good, but as Paul mentioned, there are also draw backs - like the rudder turning sideways at 300+. Making a hard right at that speed would be bad news.
 
The farther back the wing is, the bigger the multiplying effect of the downforce on the tires due to the lever effect as Ray mentioned. You'd have a hard time getting a crewchief to move the wing forward without a rule change..

I understand the "Amato Principal" regarding wings higher and further back for leverage- and as the cars were at 260-280 and the track prep at the time wasn't anywhere near the quality it is now, the "downforce for traction" issue at that time made the wing layback and height a huge jump for the advancement of the class- at the time. This I understand.
With the advances we've seen in the clutch, tires and all the engineering it takes putting 8,000 hp to the ground, my question is: can the wing now be placed in a location that still creates the necessary downforce on the rear of the car, but be out of the way in the case of a catastrophic incident such as a tire explosion? Blower bags and diapers have reduced keep parts ejection immensely as of late.. but keeping tires in check and out of the wing still needs a solution... And wouldn't reducing the aero downforce currently being generated by the lever style wing system help the tire delamination issue we've been seeing the past few years? (Jeez- I'm sounding like Franklin... :p )

From what Big Daddy was saying years ago, one of the biggest advantages of the monostrut was the rudder effect at high speed. Keeping the car straighter is always good, but as Paul mentioned, there are also draw backs - like the rudder turning sideways at 300+. Making a hard right at that speed would be bad news.

How many rocket cars and jets with rudders have we seen go really wrong due to a bad cross wind over the years? Dragsters weigh a bit less than a plane :rolleyes: , and have no movable aero adjustments to compensate for any odd air, especially air that is not moving over it from nose to tail. Isn't that why front wheel spats were outlawed originally? And if rudders are such an advantage, how come we haven't seen many examples on regular, twin strut wing systems? The few I have seen (Tommy Ivo's first RED- early 70's comes to mind) didn't stick around or gain much of a following....
 
One major difference is that rocket cars have very little downforce.

Isn't downforce created by airflow passing over a surface that (in simple terms) has been angled in such a way that it also creates drag? Most of the rocket cars I've seen rely on canards and front wings for their downforce- no need for the large wing as they need minimal rear wheel traction.

Wonder how much Connie or Snake's wedge would weigh if done in CF? (45 pounds??? :rolleyes: )
 
Martin,
You bring up some very good points. At the risk of sounding like Franklin :rolleyes: , I will attempt to describe things along the lines of what you are asking. DISCLAIMER: Although I am and aero engineer and in close contact with a TF team, I am in no way privy to any of the R & D that Garlits or Kloeber did. However, I believe if you do some research with Purdue Univ published papers, you might find a very interesting aero engineering paper on "enhancing the aerodynamic performance of a Top Fuel dragster". Here goes...

The monostrut is self stabilizing when it comes to a TF car getting crossed up. Since it is behind the CG of the car, the "lift" or sideforce generated would act in the direction to return the car back to straight (restoring force). This is the exact reason planes have tails. HOWEVER, where this becomes detrimental is in a crosswind. A 25 mph direct crosswind would give the monostrut an effective angle of attack of about 5 degrees when the car is going 300 mph. This would create a force that would want to turn the car AWAY from straight. In essence the car would "weather vane". This is the reason plane's tails have rudders AND auto pilots. A jetliner's rudder is constantly making corrections for the crosswinds the plane encounters. How can this be dealt with? I'm not certain but I am certain that any monostrut car in a large crosswind is putting more of a sideload on the sidewall of the slicks than a normal TF car. Add the fact that the cars are going 270 at half track and this becomes a very real concern. I hope this is part of what Prudhomme's team was testing for in the wind tunnel.

I don't know if it would pass tech, but if someone designed a monostrut that actually divided the wing into 2 dicreet sections (left and right), the carbon strut could be laced with kevlar and actually provide a shield to at least 1/2 of the wing. If the left tire blows, it takes out the left side of the wing but the right side is shielded and stays intact to help keep the downforce on the car. This might provide the driver with just enough time and stability to get the chutes out. Of course the strut would also have to be designed to withstand the bending stress of having only half a wing, but this CAN be designed for.

I think the best point you bring out is the location of the wing. Right now the wings provide the lever action that others have described which works well if ALL the pieces work together. Unfortunately if you lose the other half of the seesaw (the front wing) you have a VERY bad situation as Eddie Hill showed in Pomona many years ago. I haven't done a truly accurate study, but feel that the wings today could be relocated to directly above the rear-end and the given back some angle of attack (which NHRA took away after the DR incident) and provide the same downforce WITHOUT as much of a lever. I say not as much because you still have the drag of the wing trying to rotate the car back.

If you are still reading, I applaud you because this post is way too long. But I hope I've helped some.

BTW, Jacketing the wing struts of ANY TF car with an airfoil shape would help generate more downforce if done correctly but that's another long post.:rolleyes:
 
Great information, Scott.... I'll Google that Purdue paper- hopefully as good a read as your reply..
 
Design Analysis: Mathematical Modeling of Nonlinear Systems By David E. Thompson

Off to the bookstore tomorrow to find it- this was the closest thing I could find on Google meeting the criteria... There is a section in the Index regarding "dragster", but the page can't be viewed on the 'Net...Scott Y- any other hints on finding that paper (saw lots of pinewood dragsters on the Purdue site..:D )..
 
Does anyone remember in the 91 season, when Amato took the wing off? He went a 5.O... Little off topic, sorry guys. Do any of you rember why Amato did that, besides the obvious of experimenting? Doubt in this day in age it would work...
 
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