Harley-Davidson dumps Buell (1 Viewer)
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Randy
Nitro Member
In honor of the US built HD name I rented a 2010 Road King Classic at Quaid HD in Temecula yesterday. Air ride and all.
My wife and I rode to the little restaurant at the peak in Mount Palomar and had lunch, then stpped in Julian for a frozen yogurt. Since it was 90 plus degrees it was short sleeves and shorty helmets.
Had a blast.
In my short life I've owned (in order):
Taco 44 mini bike, 1966 Honda 65, 1969 Honda Trail 90, 197? Honda MT 250, Honda V45 Sabre, Honda V65 Sabre, 2002 Yamaha Zuma, 2002 Harley Davidson Fat Boy, 2003 100th Anniversary Harley Davidson Road King Classic, and currently own two 2005 Yamaha Zuma's (still have them..pit bikes). Love them all.
Anyone who doesn't understand the HD thing doesn't make them a bad person. It's just a personal taste thing.
When I got my 2003 HD Road King Classic a friend of mine ran to the Yamaha dealer and bought some look-alike-sound-alike but $10,000 cheaper wanna be that had 3,000 more horsepower than my HD. While we are cruising through the Sieera Nevada's with our wive's on board he was trying to race every Tom, Dick and Harry that came along on his Road King look-alike, including me.
I told him to get a life, go by a set of red leathers, get a croch-rocket and leave his wife at home so she doesn't get killed.
RG
My wife and I rode to the little restaurant at the peak in Mount Palomar and had lunch, then stpped in Julian for a frozen yogurt. Since it was 90 plus degrees it was short sleeves and shorty helmets.
Had a blast.
In my short life I've owned (in order):
Taco 44 mini bike, 1966 Honda 65, 1969 Honda Trail 90, 197? Honda MT 250, Honda V45 Sabre, Honda V65 Sabre, 2002 Yamaha Zuma, 2002 Harley Davidson Fat Boy, 2003 100th Anniversary Harley Davidson Road King Classic, and currently own two 2005 Yamaha Zuma's (still have them..pit bikes). Love them all.
Anyone who doesn't understand the HD thing doesn't make them a bad person. It's just a personal taste thing.
When I got my 2003 HD Road King Classic a friend of mine ran to the Yamaha dealer and bought some look-alike-sound-alike but $10,000 cheaper wanna be that had 3,000 more horsepower than my HD. While we are cruising through the Sieera Nevada's with our wive's on board he was trying to race every Tom, Dick and Harry that came along on his Road King look-alike, including me.
I told him to get a life, go by a set of red leathers, get a croch-rocket and leave his wife at home so she doesn't get killed.
RG
sharkman
Nitro Member
well its not like honda or suzuki invented the OHC engine either, 1929 Dusenbergs all had DOHC engines, remember HD put overhead valves in the 1930s, Indian continued with flatheads and went out of buisness because they didn't keep up with Harley. You can bash HD all you want, I'll ride mine with pride anyday of the week.
ROCKY
Nitro Member
I have owned several brands and also have worked at Honda and Harley dealerships. If you're looking for cheap don't think Harley, if you're looking for something you want to keep and ride forever get a Harley.
The chrome on alot of the metric bikes is chromed plastic. Cheap. They don't have anywhere near the paint quality of a Harley. Parts are MUCH harder to get and replace.
Replacing a gear in a Goldwing takes a good tech two or three days. The same job on a Harley takes about three hours.
And if you think a new Harley is low tech you don't know what you're talking about.
The chrome on alot of the metric bikes is chromed plastic. Cheap. They don't have anywhere near the paint quality of a Harley. Parts are MUCH harder to get and replace.
Replacing a gear in a Goldwing takes a good tech two or three days. The same job on a Harley takes about three hours.
And if you think a new Harley is low tech you don't know what you're talking about.
Jenn
Nitro Member
Yep! One day I was riding my Ninja down a Highway that's a nice ride/drive but the freeway is faster so not well traveled and I pulled over just to stretch my legs out, and somebody saw me on the side of the road, turned around, came to see if I was OK and offered me a soda to cool down.
My favorite sticker on a bike was "18 Grand, and 18 miles does not make you a biker"
Most of the time it's friendly ribbing between the Harley Guys and "Everything Else".
Bill
Nitro Member
Terry Younts said, "And if you think a new Harley is low tech you don't know what you're talking about."
Well then, tell me this, Terry: If the Harleys have such an abundance of modern technology incorporated into their antique engine design, why is it that NHRA requires the Jap bikes to carry roughly 33-percent more weight per-cubic-inch, so that they don't just completely run off and leave the Harleys in Pro Stock Bike???
Simple question...
You know you could build a Ford flathead-powered racer, and run it in Pro Stock, and give it all the modern technology available, but in the end, it would STILL be a Ford flathead,and the amount of weight break bestowed upon it to make it competitive with the DRCE engines would require the conventional Pro Stockers to weigh about 8,000 pounds...
That's a lot like what we have in PSB, now... so, where's this Harley technology of which you speak??? Tell me about it.... enlighten me, please...
Bill
Well then, tell me this, Terry: If the Harleys have such an abundance of modern technology incorporated into their antique engine design, why is it that NHRA requires the Jap bikes to carry roughly 33-percent more weight per-cubic-inch, so that they don't just completely run off and leave the Harleys in Pro Stock Bike???
Simple question...
You know you could build a Ford flathead-powered racer, and run it in Pro Stock, and give it all the modern technology available, but in the end, it would STILL be a Ford flathead,and the amount of weight break bestowed upon it to make it competitive with the DRCE engines would require the conventional Pro Stockers to weigh about 8,000 pounds...
That's a lot like what we have in PSB, now... so, where's this Harley technology of which you speak??? Tell me about it.... enlighten me, please...
Bill
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While the harley you see rolling down the road certainly hasn't incorporated most of the technology that makes the metric bikes so fast, that doesn't apply to the v-rods and buells we see on the track. I'd suspect that as far as technology goes, given the inherent limits of a v-twin design, those bikes have incorporated as much or more than the suzukis and kawasaki out there.
Doesn't really matter, nhra wants more than one bike manufacturer to be competitive, and will tweak the rules continuously while it tries to do that. Its too bad that they didn't do a better job of that when people like tom bradford (before his buell days), dave feazell, lori francis, connie cohen, dan baisley and others were trying to make the more traditional harley engines competitive.
Doesn't really matter, nhra wants more than one bike manufacturer to be competitive, and will tweak the rules continuously while it tries to do that. Its too bad that they didn't do a better job of that when people like tom bradford (before his buell days), dave feazell, lori francis, connie cohen, dan baisley and others were trying to make the more traditional harley engines competitive.
sdwarf36
Nitro Member
<---Kawasaki Concours with 75k miles-Kawi EX500 (wifes) Yamaha seca 650- 2 1965 Yamahas (former towbikes) 2 Yamaha SR500 thumpers-former Bike drag racer with a FJ1100- Race car powered by a Suzuki 1000. Worked as a performance bike mechanic for apx 10 years. Theres my cycle-cred.
Personally--i don't like harleys--but that being said--i dont knock the company--they are only selling what everyone wants (or at least wanted) to buy. They make the Vrod (a decent bike) and it doesnt sell for beans. Change the color of the handlebar tassles on a full dresser and they move out the door--what as a company would you do? Millions of R+D and marketing out the window--or just change the letter designation on what you have + move product? Same thing with Porsche-theres still people out there now that still gripe they made front engine cars for a while. You really think the 911 is the best they can do? Its not--its just the the best they can sell.
I hope Erik Buell bounces back and shows what he can really do.
Personally--i don't like harleys--but that being said--i dont knock the company--they are only selling what everyone wants (or at least wanted) to buy. They make the Vrod (a decent bike) and it doesnt sell for beans. Change the color of the handlebar tassles on a full dresser and they move out the door--what as a company would you do? Millions of R+D and marketing out the window--or just change the letter designation on what you have + move product? Same thing with Porsche-theres still people out there now that still gripe they made front engine cars for a while. You really think the 911 is the best they can do? Its not--its just the the best they can sell.
I hope Erik Buell bounces back and shows what he can really do.
The only reason the MoCo sold Buells was as a proactive move to prevent Harleys from being the least reliable bikes on the road.
I did a double (two bike) trade-in on a Victory motorcycle in July. Solid mount V-Twin engine, o'head cam design, modern 4 valve heads, 5 year warranty, and no tattoos required.
I don't understand the Harley hype, but it's for real. Weird feeling to have witnessed a motorcycle brand become some (misguided) people's religion.
I did a double (two bike) trade-in on a Victory motorcycle in July. Solid mount V-Twin engine, o'head cam design, modern 4 valve heads, 5 year warranty, and no tattoos required.
I don't understand the Harley hype, but it's for real. Weird feeling to have witnessed a motorcycle brand become some (misguided) people's religion.
foamy
Nitro Member
When did this happen? Just what did I miss???
Nick Name
Nitro Member
Race Engine Techonology magazine, by far, the most advanced publication of its kind, just released its "North American racing engine of the year" nominations.
One is the V&H Harley® pro stock engine. The others are the Dodge NASCAR cup engine, and the Acura ALMS LM P1
Stay tuned
One is the V&H Harley® pro stock engine. The others are the Dodge NASCAR cup engine, and the Acura ALMS LM P1
Stay tuned
.
Nitro Member
If Harley has incorporated so much technology then why do they get their asses handed to them by the V-twins made by Yamaha, Suzuki, Ducati. etc.? Starting in 1997 Suzuki had the TL 1000 S and R that made over 115 HP. Where was Harley's competition to that? Has there ever been a production Harley engine that made 115 HP out of only 1000 cc's? Ducati has some mean twins making a lot more power than that...where's Harley competing with those? Anybody remember what was Harley's attempt at professional road racing? Nothing but a money pit that produced didly squat. Yep, they sure are making the most of technology. /sarcasm
Nick Name
Nitro Member
Some time back, Honda decided to build a V-twin cruiser. Only, as is the Honda mind set, do it right. They did away with the common crank pin. Made a nice bike, however, it had a big problem; It didn't sound right. It didn't make the potato potato sound.
So what did they do, they made a common crank pin model. Now it sounded right and made less power. People were buying them, then calling us and asking if we had anything to make them faster.
So what did they do, they made a common crank pin model. Now it sounded right and made less power. People were buying them, then calling us and asking if we had anything to make them faster.
Nick Name
Nitro Member
Gotta tell you what is really impressive though. I have customers with these top fuel V-twins. 200 cubic Inches, unblown nitro and close to 1000 hp. The pistons, rods, valves, etc are larger than a top fuel car.
These guys go 6.20s at 230 mph with two holes and no blower.
Jay
These guys go 6.20s at 230 mph with two holes and no blower.
Jay
If Harley has incorporated so much technology then why do they get their asses handed to them by the V-twins made by Yamaha, Suzuki, Ducati. etc.? Starting in 1997 Suzuki had the TL 1000 S and R that made over 115 HP. Where was Harley's competition to that? Has there ever been a production Harley engine that made 115 HP out of only 1000 cc's? Ducati has some mean twins making a lot more power than that...where's Harley competing with those? Anybody remember what was Harley's attempt at professional road racing? Nothing but a money pit that produced didly squat. Yep, they sure are making the most of technology. /sarcasm
you must have misread what i said, which was that the average street bike by harley certainly doesn't compete technologically. the tl is a perfect example. There are about a dozen reasons why it was technologically superior (was still a leaker though) Among the other things; about 250 lbs less, water cooled for better temperature control, 90 degre v twin for easier intake engineering, dohc vs. pushrods allowing higher revving engines, 4 valves per cylinder etc etc. Why harley chooses to continue down their own road is their own deal.
I would certainly contrast that with the current v rod pro stock design, as well as the buell, the brain child of the g squared guys. There are still limitations inherent in the pushrod design, but given that limitation, as well as the aerodynamic limitations in the v rod body, they're doing a pretty good job.
If folks don't like the brand, for whatever reason, that's cool. for me, there is nothing mechanical in my life that can compare to firing up a 700 hp v twin and trying to keep it running for 1320 feet, although I'd certainly be the first to admit there aren't a whole bunch of harley parts on my bike.
ROCKY
Nitro Member
Harley has gone high tech in the areas where it was needed but has left the basic design somewhat intact. They have Delphi closed loop EFI, security systems that work very well, and Harmon Cardon sound systems that are bluetooth capable and can include GPS. They are tuned and most diagnostics are done by computer.
As far as changing the basic V-Twin design why in the world would they do that when it's what the customers want? Most if not all metric brands have tried to copy it.
Harley tried to copy the Jap bikes with the V-Rod. It doesn't sell well at all. And in this area you may sell one Buell a year at at a loss. We still have left over 2008 models that you can buy at way less than cost.
Harley riders don't want a bike that you have to take to a dealer and have the valves adjusted every 20000 miles at a cost of three or four hundred dollars. And I have seen bills to replace the spark plugs on a Honda CBR to be as high as three hundred bucks.
Japs build fast bikes and do it very well. But they are very high maintenance.
As far as changing the basic V-Twin design why in the world would they do that when it's what the customers want? Most if not all metric brands have tried to copy it.
Harley tried to copy the Jap bikes with the V-Rod. It doesn't sell well at all. And in this area you may sell one Buell a year at at a loss. We still have left over 2008 models that you can buy at way less than cost.
Harley riders don't want a bike that you have to take to a dealer and have the valves adjusted every 20000 miles at a cost of three or four hundred dollars. And I have seen bills to replace the spark plugs on a Honda CBR to be as high as three hundred bucks.
Japs build fast bikes and do it very well. But they are very high maintenance.
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