Cruz / Force ? (1 Viewer)
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TOPEKA - Funny Car Round 1 Eliminations
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This is what DRC says.....
ZWeinstein
Nitro Member
My question is how does the bottom bulb blink unless you rolled through the beam? I know you can back out and it gives an instant redlight, thats happened to a few bike racers but there was no way he backed out because he was in so deep. Also how does he get a .275 red when the car did not move after the initial roll. I think if this was during the countdown there would have been a much bigger stink raised.
65 Goatboy
Nitro Member
When Cruz was interviewed in his pit he did say something about checking the timing system.
65 Goatboy
Nitro Member
Interesting. The slower of two double reds in eliminations is not disqualified. But why didn't both sides go red? I hope NHRA will be looking into this.
qualified17th
Nitro Member
That's never been how it works. In both the pro and sportsman ranks, at national events and at every track in the country, a double red light never turns on both red bulbs. The slower red light always gets the green light, even if they went red. See the Pro Stock final at The Auto Club Finals in 2014 between Jason Line and Erica Enders, where they were racing for the championship. Jason went red and gave the championship to Erica, but people forget that Erica went .002 red right behind him, but her red bulb never came on and she won the race.
Even so, that doesn't necessarily explain why John's red light didn't come on after he appeared to roll through both beams and put out both stage lights, as that was before Cruz smacked the gas and went red.
*******
Nitro Member
Force didn't roll all the way thru. just the same as when they are bumping in. Sometimes the top yellow will flicker on then off. We're talking a fraction of an inch here. No big deal, no conspiracy, nothing wrong with timing system. Force just got lucky and didn't roll all the way thru and Cruz got antsy and left. You will never see both sides red when they both redlight.
Just Paul
Nitro Member
Short answer is no.
Also it's quite clear some of you commenting didn't see the video, or didn't pay close attention.
Force definitely put out both lights. I think he rolled in super deep, grabbed the brake, and the car rocked enough to put the bottom bulb out, then when the car settled the stage light was back on, but barely. Also the stage beam did turn back off while the car was sitting still, right after Cruz left.
Only 2 scenarios come to my mind.
#1 Compulink StageLOK. This was intended for anything that uses a trans brake, but fits other scenarios. Once both cars are staged, StageLOK kicks on for X amount of time to protect say, a super comp car that staged shallow, hit the button, let off the normal brake, and car rocks back a tiny bit. It won't red light the car for rocking back even if the beam reconnects. I would think it works the same way forward, and as long as the guard beam isn't tripped the same principal applies. The system has built in driver protection for a car rocking in the beams a tiny amount. It's on for national events, but not all tracks/events have it.
#2 Accidental perfect timing. Both stage bulbs are lit. The tree goes into it's designated random delay before activating. Within this time, Force's car blinks the beam, but the beam is connected before the tree activates, so the system doesn't red light him.
Now, John was shown as -.271 without the car moving after the fact. I think Cruz leaving the starting line caused enough vibration to move things around enough (enough meaning not an inch, not half inch, not quarter inch, whatever "enough" is) the beams reconnected, the stage light went back off and gave John the reaction time it did.
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Headerfire
Nitro Member
This is exactly what happened, but once that bottom bulb blinked (even if it was rocking), shouldn't that be considered leaving before the tree activated? You're only allowed one trip across the starting line.
Here is an explanation and the only one I have ever known.
It is also important to deep stage slowly so you don’t allow the car to roll too far forward and let the stage beam photocell make contact with its reflector, which gives you a red light.
4. Some tracks have a third photocell and reflector set called the “guard” beam. If you break this beam before the green light, you get a red light.
This beam is exactly 13 inches from the staged beam. It is used to ensure competitors don’t roll forward an unfair amount, which shortens the measured start-to-finish distance and allows an advantage. This guard beam also prevents you from run-ning front tires so tall that they also shorten the measured start-to-finish distance, allowing you to get to the finish line quicker than you should.
Ideally, if you leave when the final yellow light comes on, you should have a .500-second reaction time. Staging shallow or deep as described above may not even get you close to a .500-second light. Every driver and car has different response times, which are combined for the overall reaction time.
I still think this was a miscue on everyone's part.
It is also important to deep stage slowly so you don’t allow the car to roll too far forward and let the stage beam photocell make contact with its reflector, which gives you a red light.
4. Some tracks have a third photocell and reflector set called the “guard” beam. If you break this beam before the green light, you get a red light.
This beam is exactly 13 inches from the staged beam. It is used to ensure competitors don’t roll forward an unfair amount, which shortens the measured start-to-finish distance and allows an advantage. This guard beam also prevents you from run-ning front tires so tall that they also shorten the measured start-to-finish distance, allowing you to get to the finish line quicker than you should.
Ideally, if you leave when the final yellow light comes on, you should have a .500-second reaction time. Staging shallow or deep as described above may not even get you close to a .500-second light. Every driver and car has different response times, which are combined for the overall reaction time.
I still think this was a miscue on everyone's part.
none
Nitro Member
John rolled right to the back edge of the beam, The car was rocking. You can turn the beam on or off by moving less than 1/8 of an inch. He was barely touching the back of the second beam. We are talking fractions of an inch here. When you pull up to a stop sign, when the car stops it rocks back doesn't it? Not back a foot, but certainly back a fraction of an inch.
Here's the sequence.
Cruz rolled deep. Top light out.
John rolled WAY deep all the way to the back side of the 2nd beam and stopped abruptly when he went too far.
The bottom light went out.
John's car rocked back into the beam and the light came back on.
Cruz saw that blink and took off. (I spoke to Cruz today, he told me that.)
The tree flashed as John's car rocked into the beam.
Cruz was already gone. He actually got a rear wheel start indicated by the 60' time of .7 something.
John's car then rocked out of the beam again for a negative reaction time, but Cruz' red light was already on, so John got the green (The system won't throw two red lights in eliminations) and he never even hit the gas.
But he was in the beam when the tree flashed yellow.
As Cruz and I talked today I said "You could give every driver in the class 100 tries and they could never make that happen again." and he agreed, I have never seen it before and not many have watched more races than I have. I have seen it happen with the Pre-Stage. When a competitor goes a little too far and the top light goes out, then the car rocks back to turn it on. If it happens just right you get the green. If it happens wrong you get the deep stage red in sportsman racing.
Bottom line, it was pure luck for John, but it wasn't a timing system error, nor was it a conspiracy, and no rule needs to be added or changed.
Alan
Edit: I double checked the numbers and Cruz 60' was not extra quick, it was actually extra slow indicating the very deep stage.
Here's the sequence.
Cruz rolled deep. Top light out.
John rolled WAY deep all the way to the back side of the 2nd beam and stopped abruptly when he went too far.
The bottom light went out.
John's car rocked back into the beam and the light came back on.
Cruz saw that blink and took off. (I spoke to Cruz today, he told me that.)
The tree flashed as John's car rocked into the beam.
Cruz was already gone. He actually got a rear wheel start indicated by the 60' time of .7 something.
John's car then rocked out of the beam again for a negative reaction time, but Cruz' red light was already on, so John got the green (The system won't throw two red lights in eliminations) and he never even hit the gas.
But he was in the beam when the tree flashed yellow.
As Cruz and I talked today I said "You could give every driver in the class 100 tries and they could never make that happen again." and he agreed, I have never seen it before and not many have watched more races than I have. I have seen it happen with the Pre-Stage. When a competitor goes a little too far and the top light goes out, then the car rocks back to turn it on. If it happens just right you get the green. If it happens wrong you get the deep stage red in sportsman racing.
Bottom line, it was pure luck for John, but it wasn't a timing system error, nor was it a conspiracy, and no rule needs to be added or changed.
Alan
Edit: I double checked the numbers and Cruz 60' was not extra quick, it was actually extra slow indicating the very deep stage.
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Thanks for the great explanation Alan! I've been waiting for your input! The true pure expert speaks. Not many have your experience...
Force can appy the old saying "I'd rather be lucky than good" because the way those cars vibrate and shake he could have easily red lit with that short of a "wiggle room".
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