Countdown Question (1 Viewer)

[Buddy]

Force made the comment that he was OK w/ the top 8, but did not like the cut to 4. Would be better to let the top 8 (or 10?) race the rest of the season (like NASCAR) w/o a cut?

That would have my vote (if I got to vote)... Force probably wouldn't like his four cars to make the cut and then everyone knowing one of his cars would win... That would defeat the purpose of the countdown/championship...

CJ Curtsinger

 

[kingcobrafan]

Chris will you be doing the same this year? If not let me know and I'll keep on going on here.

I'm would like to see the points run 3 ways just to see what the difference is.
The countdown
The true champ way (last years method)
and also not cutting to the final 4. Basically running the 8 in the playoffs through the rest of the season.

heck we could end up with 3 ways to have a champ. That's it its just pick a champion now. Use whatever points system you want until your guys wins. Makes about as much sense as the welfare system

opps, I guess the streak is over

Admirable restraint, PJ! You must have felt like Vincent Price in "The Tingler": mustn't scream, mustn't scream, then! Don't stress yourself out like that.

 

[Eric Gross]

I have a dumb question but after the cuts will we still see a 16 car field ? ALso if your not in the chase why would you waste the funds for bragging rights? why not go to IHRA and get some good ol racing !

 

[jpee]

I have a dumb question but after the cuts will we still see a 16 car field ? ALso if your not in the chase why would you waste the funds for bragging rights? why not go to IHRA and get some good ol racing !

My thoughts exactly.. see my post in the other thread "Countdown"

 

[Buddy]

I have a dumb question but after the cuts will we still see a 16 car field ? ALso if your not in the chase why would you waste the funds for bragging rights? why not go to IHRA and get some good ol racing !

Yes we will still have a 16 car field... Its the teams choice to continue or not, but sponsors pay for you to put their company in front of a crowd and on TV... Plus, you can then test without worrying about not winning...

CJ Curtsinger

 

[farmje]

I have a dumb question but after the cuts will we still see a 16 car field ? ALso if your not in the chase why would you waste the funds for bragging rights? why not go to IHRA and get some good ol racing !

See, this is where I don't get why people say this. And perhaps it's 100% flawed logic on my part. (Very well could be.)

But take for instance 2005 in the TF World Championship when the Sarge had the championship clinched by Las Vegas. He finished 415 points ahead of everyone else. What incentive once he clinched did everyone have to continue coming to the races? They had no shot at the championship. Heck, he could have not showed up or raced and still won by a landslide.

How about the 2004 Pro Stock title? Didn't GA have it wrapped up by Dallas? He finished 742 points ahead of the competition come Pomona. What incentive did people have to go to the last three races? Again, no shot at the championship. Not just second place, but third through the back.

Now, I don't like the countdown, but it's what they've decided, and I'm not crapping on the sport I love just because they made a bad choice in my eyes. Heck, I'll admit, it's given my favorite drivers John Force, and CSK team a shot at winning.

But the 9th place person in Indy, 2005 was an average of 900 points back from #1. No mathematical shot. Period. They could have won every race and still finished out of the top 5.

Tell me how this points system is different from the old one in that people way back won't show up because they have no shot at winning...heck, many people in the top 5 don't even have a shot at winning with the old points system, and yet they show up.

I am just failing to see this logic here.

Again, I'm not a fan of the countdown. But....

I love NHRA=I hate the countdown=I still love the NHRA

 

[none]

Good points Jeremy. Not to mention the fact that most if not all of these guys just flat out love to race. Look at how many of them race on their "off" weekends............

 

[Kati]

Good points Jeremy. Not to mention the fact that most if not all of these guys just flat out love to race. Look at how many of them race on their "off" weekends............

Yes...not only that.....but....

It's no different I guess than a sportsman racer being "claimed out" of races...but still going to more events than what we can get points for. We don't stop just because we can't gain any more points.

We still go to more races for several reasons...

One....we can NEVER race enough! (winter comes quicker every year...I swear)
Two....we do it for our sponsors!
...and maybe even more importantly.....Three...we might not be able to get any more points....but we can sure try to keep others from getting any more!

Not exactly the same in this instance....but.......



EDIT.....oh yeah...how could I forget....Four......there's $$ to be won!!

 

[hellfirejim]

Jeremy, in answer to one of your questions why do people show up in the past even though it was already won?? Simple they had the opportunity to advance from whatever their position to second place. Now no matter what you do if you are not in the top 8 the best you can do is 9th. Following even further is after the cut to the final 4 no matter what you do it is not possible to advance past 5th place even though you could have more points total that anyone higher up.

All this is caused by the fact that we have a bastard playoff, countdown, system. In all the other sports, except NASCAR, they have a separate series for the playoff which makes a lot of sense. This competing within the chase is what causes problems in NASCAR land and could mind you I said could cause problems here.
jim

 

[farmje]

Jim,

I understand where you're coming from -- but let's focus on the 2004 world championships. Here are the Pro Stock points:

01 Greg Anderson 2402 * Pontiac
02 Jason Line 1660 -742 Pontiac
03 Dave Connolly 1526 -876 Chevrolet
04 Larry Morgan 1256 -1146 Dodge
05 Kurt Johnson 1245 -1157 Chevrolet
06 Jeg Coughlin 1109 -1293 Dodge
07 Bruce Allen 1088 -1314 Pontiac
08 Steve Johns 1042 -1360 Chevrolet
09 Kenny Koretsky 961 -1441 Dodge

Kenny Koretsky had no chance to finish anything higher than fifth. Mathematically speaking. That is winning the race everytime, and resetting national records at every event. He couldn't have made second, third, or fourth. With the Pontiac power that year, he had no chance to really make it anything higher than 7th. Yet, he still went to the races.

It's just bogus to me the people that are saying folks won't show up at the races. Let's take Tony Bartone who has mathematically no shot at the countdown. Why would he go to the races? My question is, why wouldn't he? He'd have no shot at it whatsoever...countdown or not. Heck, he probably can't even get in the top 10, period.

Let's take this years points as they are (with no countdown). Larry Morgan has no shot at winning Pro Stock. Zero. He could win every race for the rest of the year, reset the national record at http://www.nitromater.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=82517
www.nitromater.com - Reply to Topicevery event, and Greg (and everyone else ahead of him) would have to not qualify and basically be a no show for the race to lose. Larry Morgan has no shot at winning the championship under the old points system. So, he could move up a few spots. But he will not make up 400 points in a few races. It just won't happen.

But to say that people will not show up is questionable to me. Racers will show up. Those that have a shot and those that don't.

The only difference between this years countdown and last years points system is that more people have a shot at winning. Call it unethical, ignorant, whatever you want. That's the bottom line.

It's easier for a 20th place contender to win the championship (cough, Force, cough) this year than it was under the old system when he'd have no chance but to maybe make 5th or 6th in the points.

Just my (long) 2 cents.

 

[hellfirejim]

I think the real answer lies in the fact that these people are racers. They are no different that your Sat night bracket racer. They all love to race just do it at a higher level.

Funny thing that Tony Stewart said after the Indy 400 that he won. They asked him about the crowds and he said that he didn't care if there were 4 or 400,000 people, he came to race. And that applies to all the others so that is why they will show up.

short story.
jim

 

[PJ]

Of course, so many have already locked in spots ion the top eight that the drama is pretty much gone and the next two races really don't mean much, and I suspect spots in the final four will also be locked in a couple races into the second phase, again making the next couple races relatively unimportant. Instead of making the last couple races unimportant in the championship, they have succeeded in spreading the unimportance to races earlier in the season.

Like I said, enjoy each race for it's own little successes and failures because the points picture won't mean much until the final two races. Then it's a coin toss, one lucky or unlucky race will determine the championship.
..

I agree. The supposed added drama is wiped away by teams cliniching early

The real Drama of seeing if Force can make a Schumacher like charge to the top is gone knowing that he's going to be given points to help him catch up in a few races.

I hate that the sport is taking honest compitition and throwing it out the window and replacing it with pre-packaged reality tv type planned "drama and excitement"

 

[PJ]

See, this is where I don't get why people say this. And perhaps it's 100% flawed logic on my part. (Very well could be.)

But take for instance 2005 in the TF World Championship when the Sarge had the championship clinched by Las Vegas. He finished 415 points ahead of everyone else. What incentive once he clinched did everyone have to continue coming to the races? They had no shot at the championship. Heck, he could have not showed up or raced and still won by a landslide.

How about the 2004 Pro Stock title? Didn't GA have it wrapped up by Dallas? He finished 742 points ahead of the competition come Pomona. What incentive did people have to go to the last three races? Again, no shot at the championship. Not just second place, but third through the back.

Now, I don't like the countdown, but it's what they've decided, and I'm not crapping on the sport I love just because they made a bad choice in my eyes. Heck, I'll admit, it's given my favorite drivers John Force, and CSK team a shot at winning.

But the 9th place person in Indy, 2005 was an average of 900 points back from #1. No mathematical shot. Period. They could have won every race and still finished out of the top 5.

Tell me how this points system is different from the old one in that people way back won't show up because they have no shot at winning...heck, many people in the top 5 don't even have a shot at winning with the old points system, and yet they show up.

I am just failing to see this logic here.

Again, I'm not a fan of the countdown. But....

I love NHRA=I hate the countdown=I still love the NHRA

its quite simple. Its not about giving everyone a shot at the title. This isn't my 5 yr old kids soccer team where we don't keep score and everybody just has fun.

This is big time sports, if you get your arse handed to you all season then you simply don't deserve to be the Champ. Regroup and try again next year. If a team can't handle not winning and not having a chance at the title still, even though they haven't done anything then maybe they need to try a different hobby

Two of my favorite drivers are sitting outside the 8 right now. I want them to win but unless the truely have the most points at the end of the season then they don't desrve to win it.

I do agree in part that we shouldn't see any drop in attendence. If more teams had tried doing some IHRA events earlier in the year then they could jump over once they missed the cut to 8th and try for the title there if they wanted. Plus most sponsorship deals are based on them attending nhra events.

 

[farmje]

its quite simple. Its not about giving everyone a shot at the title. This isn't my 5 yr old kids soccer team where we don't keep score and everybody just has fun.

This is big time sports, if you get your arse handed to you all season then you simply don't deserve to be the Champ. Regroup and try again next year. If a team can't handle not winning and not having a chance at the title still, even though they haven't done anything then maybe they need to try a different hobby

Two of my favorite drivers are sitting outside the 8 right now. I want them to win but unless the truely have the most points at the end of the season then they don't desrve to win it.

I do agree in part that we shouldn't see any drop in attendence. If more teams had tried doing some IHRA events earlier in the year then they could jump over once they missed the cut to 8th and try for the title there if they wanted. Plus most sponsorship deals are based on them attending nhra events.

PJ,

God knows that I don't want to argue with you about the countdown, but I believe this decision boils down to one thing for the NHRA: to make the races closer. You can look at how close the FC and TF races were last year...and how close FC was the year before that, going into the last event...but statistically speaking from past points races, that's not the case.

I understand the NHRA's reason for doing it...they want things to be closer, and for more people to follow our sport.

The only thing the countdown does for you PJ is redefine the word "champ" in your mind. Right or wrong, that's ALL it is.

 

[PJ]

PJ,

God knows that I don't want to argue with you about the countdown, but I believe this decision boils down to one thing for the NHRA: to make the races closer. You can look at how close the FC and TF races were last year...and how close FC was the year before that, going into the last event...but statistically speaking from past points races, that's not the case.

I understand the NHRA's reason for doing it...they want things to be closer, and for more people to follow our sport.

The only thing the countdown does for you PJ is redefine the word "champ" in your mind. Right or wrong, that's ALL it is.

it would be more excting for fans if we went the monster truck route and just award the winner by whomever gets the loudest cheer too.

It does more then redefine champ, it redefines racing. Nascar drivers not in their chase have admitted to not racing as hard for fear of wrecking someone who is in the chase, we've already have complaints of diving over the years in drag racing. What can we expect to see now, with things closer teams (and sponsors) are forced to make the questionable calls now.

Growing up playing sports and even now in the sports I play or when I go race at the track. Yes I'm there to have fun and for the love of the sport but I also want to win. Last night in my softball league we gave up a huge lead early on. It made our comeback all the sweeter knowing that it was earned and that we didn't get 10 runs handed to us int he 5th inning to just make it closer.

You race to win, you race to be the best. That used to mean being the champ but now it no longer does. The champ in nhra only means whoever got lucky for a few races.

I guess I'm just not PC. Winning a championship on any level is something that you should have to earn. If you're not good enough this year fine, suck it up and try again next year. Don't expect some welfare points system genie to gift you more points.

 

[Sully]

In economics, there is a principle called "Gresham's Law." Simply stated, "bad money drives out good." I stumbled across an interesting article that extends Gresham's Law to other fields of human endeavor - and it's probably applicable here:

Japan is cursed by Gresham's Law: Let Darwin's Law rule RIETI

For those who want to skip reading the article, its premise is this: If you reward the mediocre as well as you reward the outstanding, what you end up with is mediocrity.

Just something to think about while we have a break in the NHRA action. For those with short attention spans, things should be really busy this coming weekend at Martin, Michigan. Great track, great field expected, and Saturday night fireworks!!

 

[none]

I have a dumb question but after the cuts will we still see a 16 car field ? ALso if your not in the chase why would you waste the funds for bragging rights? why not go to IHRA and get some good ol racing !

Why would you do that? Would you be able to win the IHRA Championship? Do you think that the level of competition is going to fall off? If what you want is "Good ol racing" aren't you going to go where the biggest names in the sport are?

Do you think that the racers go to each race thinking about the Championship? The ones I know go to the races thinking about one thing, getting that Gold Man. After the race they count the points, but nobody on Sunday ever decided to take the rest of the day off because their points rival lost, so now they had nothing left to race for.

Alan

 

[club]

PJ, remember your blood pressure, stay calm we don't want you blowing a gasket today. You also don't want to get YELLED at like a previous thread.

Maybe you could go by Ray's for some therapeutic sanding.

 

[farmje]

it would be more excting for fans if we went the monster truck route and just award the winner by whomever gets the loudest cheer too.

It does more then redefine champ, it redefines racing. Nascar drivers not in their chase have admitted to not racing as hard for fear of wrecking someone who is in the chase, we've already have complaints of diving over the years in drag racing. What can we expect to see now, with things closer teams (and sponsors) are forced to make the questionable calls now.

Growing up playing sports and even now in the sports I play or when I go race at the track. Yes I'm there to have fun and for the love of the sport but I also want to win. Last night in my softball league we gave up a huge lead early on. It made our comeback all the sweeter knowing that it was earned and that we didn't get 10 runs handed to us int he 5th inning to just make it closer.

You race to win, you race to be the best. That used to mean being the champ but now it no longer does. The champ in nhra only means whoever got lucky for a few races.

I guess I'm just not PC. Winning a championship on any level is something that you should have to earn. If you're not good enough this year fine, suck it up and try again next year. Don't expect some welfare points system genie to gift you more points.

Dude, calm down bro

None of that was ever meant to get you that worked up...remember, I signed your petition

 

[Kelly]

I love y'all.....but these threads are starting to read like Charlie Brown's teacher...


"mwa-mwa-mwa"

"mwa-mwa-mwa"

"mwa-mwa-mwa"

That's all I see in any of these Countdown threads. Oh, I saw 'Capps' in one of them.