#1 on NHRA'S Black List (1 Viewer)

[Cabes]

Can someone please explain to me what was wrong with the old points system? I understand that NHRA is trying to keep from having a runaway champ. BUT why penalize someone that is on their game an busting butt to win everything??? Now just be mediocre an finish in the top 8 during the first part and you in the points chase?? What happens if someone comes out HOT an wins all the first part races an then loses to the team that was in 8th place? Does that seem fair to anyone??

SORRY I just don't understand!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes...Just like it was in the NFL last season when a team went 15-1 during the regular season, and followed it up by laying an egg and losing in the second round of the playoffs.

 

[Kelly]

Let me add this to my reply to Alan. Yes, I will watch if my favorite driver(s) are out of it. I still enjoy the sport and I will be rooting for them to play spoiler and get the win(s). And if they can't do that.....maybe I'll catch some great racing while watching who's left!

 

[Rich]

Rich just said that he isn't going to Sonoma next year. Are you saying that the race won't be any good because the point system has changed? When I was a kid, I would go to the AHRA nationals here in Tucson if a car had #1 on it he must be the champ, but I didn't care about that, I just wanted to see the cars run. After that I started going to Firebird for the same reason, just to see the cars and the stars. The only National Dragster I ever saw was the one that I got at the track. I have evolved. Those of us here at "The Mater" are hard core fans, sorry to break this to you but we don't really represent the majority of the ticket buying public.

Actually, I think it's very possible that the racing won't be the same. Perhaps it will remain the same at Sonoma, but the new system may very well affect the racing following the US Nationals. A case in point is what we are now seeing in NASCAR. As anyone who follows stock car racing knows, the August night race at Bristol has always been one of the most popular races of the year - in fact it's the toughest ticket in NASCAR. But since the introduction of the Chase we've seen more and more drivers driving for points rather than the win as it gets closer to the cut date for the top ten. Sorry to say, but this year's Nextel Cup race at Bristol was almost boring. I would argue that the Chase has indeed had a negative effect on what has always been one of the most exciting NASCAR races of the year. Under the new points plan, I think we could very well see the same thing happen to NHRA drag racing.

As I mentioned earlier, though, one of my primary beefs is the way this change was decided. It could and should have been done differently. For instance, two years ago there was talk in NHL circles that something had to be done to make hockey more exciting. Like the NHRA did when they changes the points system, the NHL commissioner and his rules committee could have simply came up with a new set of rules and implimented the changes. But that's not what happened. Instead, a group of players, general managers, coaches, and representatives of the NHL front office set down together at a table and came up with a set of recommendations. Most of those recommendations were instituted beginning last year. Moreover, prior to the changes being implimented, there was a great deal of discussion and debates in the hockey media about the proposed rule changes. Keep in mind, too, that some of those rule changes were far-reaching and had a dramatic effect on the way the game was traditionally played (for instance, the NHL ended tie games by adopting a shootout format following an overtime period). But because of the way the rule changes came about, the rules were accepted by all parties - including the players and the fans.

NASCAR and the NFL may get away with making arbitrary rule changes because they are both the widely popular big boys on the block. The NHRA and the NHL on the other hand, primarily appeal to hardcore fans and therefore neither can afford to alienate their base. Just has the NHL has had to come to grips that they are not the NFL, the NHRA also must understand that they are not NASCAR. And in my opinion the NHRA handled this situation badly.

 

[The Counterfeiter]

Well . . . I'm going to be very careful here. Jeff and I have been very close friends for twenty years, and he has no fear of stating his opinion. That is exactly what this is and what he is paid to do. It appears that most of us agree with him.
He did not report on what is a huge choke point with the new rules.
It has been reported elsewhere that the president of PRO was consulted about this and did not bother to inform other members until they were blindsided at Indy. Things went further downhill after the announcement of the new team and the subsiquent hiring of an NHRA employee who had complete knowledge of every racing part until he was escorted out of a fuel team's pit.
IMHO - my friend has this all right. And . . . Reinhart your comment that Jeff's opinion doesn't matter has seriously damaged my respect for you.
When sponsors find that the team they have spent big bucks to race are done after Indy - this is going to get ugly.

 

[Dave]

Wolf's best point is it's time for the members to take back the organization.

Question: How? What are you really a member of, or put another way; what can you as a "member" do?

I have been/am a member of several professional and other associations, as well as have been a member of the NHRA for several years. In all of these other groups (IEEE, PMI, NRA & SCCA as examples), members actually are involved in the decisions of the organizations. They created the bylaws and operating rules. We elect the leaders and serve on committees that make rules and determine the operating procedures.

I've never received a copy of the bylaws, voted on leaders or been notified of any meetings or been sent the annual report of the NHRA.

Short of deciding to not be a member any longer, I'm not sure what the "members" can do with respect to anything that NHRA leadership does.

My 2¢: While Alan may be right ("the sky isn't falling"), I do think that this is a really stupid move. Your mileage may vary.

 

[mike]

well, the "competition yellow" NASCAR throws on their season points chase has caused me to lose (more) interest in NASCAR...

I'm just not a fan of overly managed competition, and these sorts of changes reek of that...and it will have a direct effect on my race attendence too, in the future the Finals in Pomona will, at least to me, feel "forced" and a lot of the excitement and luster of a great season long points battle will be gone...

not to mention that everything else at the race will become secondary to how the two contenders are doing (and that will probably be case at the earlier "Chase" races too)...

no the sky isn't falling, and yes, it's probably not that bad...but it'd sure be nice if NHRA made a decision that felt more "positive" every once in a while, I mean how many "it could be worse" changes can be made before it is worse???

 

[The Counterfeiter]

Bobby reports that Force has resigned from PRO. This is gonna get VERY interesting!

 

[ProNitro Pete]

Ray Alley is gone, leaves us, with Leadership Light!
Mater Guys & Mater Gals, It just doesnt seem right !
Some dumb -ass descision that was made quite in haste,
Makes all of the Teams efforts a bit of a waste.

With Oildowns and Blown parts and all of the Piddle
What team wants to spend bucks to land in the middle.
The top cars arent safe with the wild cards thrown,
the Fate of your team is a burst panel blown.

I see Alans position, tween rock & hard place,
see that the remnants are thrust in his face.
You like it or dont, to us it dont mattter
you quit us today, or agree with the latter!

Glendora made a descision, a desision real bad
theres 16 positions to the best cars be had.
Alan just covered his ass......Dont stoop to be Haters.
we know 'bout racin' Cause we're All NITRO-MATERS..

The valor of our sport and decisions we make,
will be all that they care, less money they take!
True Racin we want, True racing we'll get
It Isnt Quite over with NHRA Yet!

 

[Nazgul]

If it's true that KB new of the changes well before everyone else in the paddock then I find that a litte curious. My main gripe is that everyone seems to have been blindsided with this news. I wish the owners, teams, etc. the people who actually make up the pro side of the NHRA (those who compete) could have had a voice in the matter before it became what supposedly is a reality.

It may very well turn out to be better than a box of cinnamon toast crunch cereal with whole milk. But I would've like to have heard from the competitors before the final call was made. Maybe they would've liked 2% milk?

 

[d'kid]

Good Morning All... Just in from the 2nd job...
Okay, I've chilled some...

The three major stick and ball sports need a play-off because of all the different Divisions... was the winner of the NFL played the winner of the AFL to be Champion... but both leagues grew so big they needed to playoff to determine who was league champion and got to play in the Superbowl.
I haven't watched a Superbowl since 1984 and until Indy, I thought the Colts were in Baltimore.

Was the same with MLB, the NL champ played the AL champ... again they grew larger, so they needed a playoff.

I haven't watched MLB since it grew so large it needed a play off, except went to two games in 1979, one at the Big A, the other a Dodger Stadium, tickets on 3M. I heard The Angels won the World Series a couple of years ago, that made me smile, I was a Junior Angel back in the mid 60's.

Why NASCAR decided to have a playoff is beyond me, I haven't watched a NASCAR race since '99.

I've been a Drag Racing Fan since the Mid 60's, think I was like 12 the first time I went to LIONS, The only time I made it to the March Meet was 73, the weekend before I went on active duty. Slept in my car all weekend. Surprising the amount of 'dates' I took to OCIR, Lions, or the 'Dale, and the number of first timers I took with me over the years.

Ah, back then, in the 60's and early 70's, the World Championship was decided by who won the World Finals, which you needed to finish in the top three in your division to attend.

Then, a few years later with the Pro classes, the championship was changed to Who did the best over the whole season at National Events only. No need for a playoff. Did it bother me if a team ran away with the title? Nope, they were the best team and should be the champion.

I think what Glendora missed in all this, is that by nature Drag Racing is always the "Sweet Sixteen". The Entire Season is the Playoffs... If they Really Want to crown at World Champion, then the Winner of the NHRA Title should Race the Winner of the IHRA Title, in a Five race series, Best out of three at each race, at Alternating Sanctioning Body tracks.

Now That Would make it understandable to the un-enlightened

just my $25 worth

 

[nick name]

...With the new format, there is a much better chance that the casual fan will either have someone to cheer, or someone to boo at the end of the year. How much do you enjoy the last 30 minutes of a mystery movie, if you know who done it halfway through?... /COLOR]

Thanks for taking the time to post such thoughtful replies. It just struck me what a tough position you are in.

You reach millions of people, and at the core, your job is entertainment. I'm not saying that you do song and dance or tell jokes, just that at the end of the day your job rating is based on whether people wanted to watch and listen to what you had to say.

On the other hand, I know you are a true gearhead and committed drag race enthusiast. You have been involved in the nuts and bolts of racing, know the ins and outs, and understand the challenges of competition.

I'm convinced that the uproar that's presently going on is due to the fans and most racers being dedicated to the second group - gearheads who thrive on competition.

The problem arises because the NHRA brass are focused on entertainment. For the handful of them that have raced, it was many years ago and I suspect they've forgotten what it was like.

I've always loved drag racing because it is about the most pure form of competition I've ever seen. You compete against one other person. You get one chance. No one runs into you and puts you out of the race. You don't get a chance to stop partway through the race and correct your setup mistakes. It's a simple distillation of competition - me vs. my opponent.

I once had a brother in law with a serious six-figure gambling problem. During some of the time I spent with him, I realized the look in his eyes when he was describing hitting a big pot was EXACTLY like the look in mine when I was talking about the win light coming on.

So that's why I'm so strenuously opposed to the new plan. It's not pure competition any more. I enjoy the races and the season long battle to see who's the best at any given point. If the championship race is close at the end of the year is close, it's icing on the cake but it's not my main interest.

If Force had been made to run a lesser percentage of nitro the years he ran off that amazing string of championships, the racing would be been closer. But it wouldn't be the racing I know.

If Glidden or WJ had been forced to carry more weight during the time they dominated PS, there would have been a LOT more photo finishes. But it wouldn't have been right.

So I guess we agree to disagree. I'm entertained at a drag race by those performing at a level of excellence that's rarely seen. You believe the key to the future is entertaining the fans by producing photo finishes by whatever means necessary.

And finally, other than the philosophical issues I'm not sure it's even a good business judgement. Major League Baseball is hemorraging fans and TV ratings are on a steady downward trend. Was it due to most games not having much meaning?

The NFL is not the shining star it once was. Even a legend like Monday Night Football has undergone major changes in order to get the viewers back to the level it once attracted.

And as for NASCAR, most races this year have less viewers than they did last year - for some venues a significant amount.

So the NHRA has tunnel vision towards close competitiion even if it has to be contrived. Even if Mr. Compton is on his way to a Clear Channel Monster Jam monster truck paradigm, I'm not sure his decisions are going to do what he wants.

Lord, this is way too long. I haven't even addressed the autocratic way this was handled. That's for another day.

 

[JRX]

If Force had been made to run a lesser percentage of nitro the years he ran off that amazing string of championships, the racing would be been closer. But it wouldn't be the racing I know.
If Glidden or WJ had been forced to carry more weight during the time they dominated PS, there would have been a LOT more photo finishes. But it wouldn't have been right.
.

Great points!

 

[D]

There have been some great points made on this thread but I think it can be boiled down to this:
The NHRA made this decision in a vacuum.
The new points system is reality TV show style forced "excitement".
The current point system isn't broken.
We're the hardcore fanatic dragracing fan base
NHRA is going to do whatever they want regardless of the consequences.
I'm annoyed but I'm not going to stop following the drags, because Drag Racing and football are the only sports everything else is just chaff. Oh and I can't pull the needle of nitro/alcohol/racing gas out my arm.
Semper Gumby
D

 

[Gordon]

As I mentioned earlier, though, one of my primary beefs is the way this change was decided. It could and should have been done differently. For instance, two years ago there was talk in NHL circles that something had to be done to make hockey more exciting. Like the NHRA did when they changes the points system, the NHL commissioner and his rules committee could have simply came up with a new set of rules and implimented the changes. But that's not what happened. Instead, a group of players, general managers, coaches, and representatives of the NHL front office set down together at a table and came up with a set of recommendations. Most of those recommendations were instituted beginning last year. Moreover, prior to the changes being implimented, there was a great deal of discussion and debates in the hockey media about the proposed rule changes. Keep in mind, too, that some of those rule changes were far-reaching and had a dramatic effect on the way the game was traditionally played (for instance, the NHL ended tie games by adopting a shootout format following an overtime period). But because of the way the rule changes came about, the rules were accepted by all parties - including the players and the fans.

NASCAR and the NFL may get away with making arbitrary rule changes because they are both the widely popular big boys on the block. The NHRA and the NHL on the other hand, primarily appeal to hardcore fans and therefore neither can afford to alienate their base. Just has the NHL has had to come to grips that they are not the NFL, the NHRA also must understand that they are not NASCAR. And in my opinion the NHRA handled this situation badly.

Outstanding analogy Rich. And your last two sentences are, to quote a line from My Cousin Vinny, "Dead-on balls accurate."

Granted, the NHL took a year off to get there - but in the end, when everyone (players, owners, NHL management, etc.) agreed to the changes we (You all remember WE, don't you? You know - the fans, the people who buy the tickets, the ones who buy all the memorabilia, etc...) Anyway, we got an absolutely awesome & exciting product to spend our money on.

And I'm not suggesting the fans should have a say in the matter, because we probably shouldn't. But the racers & owners, and when I say racers & owners, I mean racers & owners, not just Kenny Bernstein, should have had a say in this matter. At least a percentage of people from each professional class - including perennial DNQ players, former (current) world champs & a little of everyone in between. Probably wouldn't have hurt to give the racers & owners a chance to brief their sponsors either, the folks who are really writing the checks. Then, as Rich alluded to above, everyone would have buy-in and we probably wouldn't still be discussing it today.

I agree with everyone - the sky certainly isn't falling & I'll be a fan of NHRA Championship Drag Racing until the day I die. But NHRA had better wake up and smell the 85% Nitro they're burnin'. They can't keep treating their racers, fans and sponsors the way they've been perceived to be treating them and expect to keep gaining in popularity.

 

[Jon Asher]

I conducted 35 driver interviews on the new points system during the U.S. Nationals for Competitionplus.com and didn't find one racer totally in favor of it. Even those drivers that NHRA officials told me were completely in favor of it turned out to be not so for it once out of earshot of those same officials.

Regardless, the primary area of objection was the cut to just four drivers with only two races remaining. There's no point in my going over the details here, so check out what was on compplus for specific reactions.

Simply put there are just too many ways in which someone could lose the championship with just two races left, and that's what seems to have most competitors worried.

I had more than one individual suggest to me that this new plan was largely the result of an increased crowd at last year's Finals, which NHRA apparently attributed solely to the Funny Car chase with three cars in contention. I can't argue that point because I doubt if any real spectator survey was conducted that might prove or disprove that theory.

As far as "taking back conrol of NHRA" is concerned, that simply can't and won't happen. Some time in the late 70s or early 80s (can't recall the specific year) NHRA sent out proxy ballots to the membership asking them to support the current Board of Directors. All they needed to do that was a simple majority of the returned proxies, whether that was 5, 500 or 5,000. In other words, they didn't need a majority of the total membership, just the majority of the returned proxies. By approving the current Board the members also gave the Board the right to appoint and replace members of the Board without consulting the membership. Once that took place no one could overthrow, replace or otherwise influence the Board without themselves having the proxy votes of 75% of the active membership, and that's obviously not going to happen.

I understand Jeff Wolf's ire and often share his frustrations with an organization that we all believe could become a leading force in North American motorsports. There just appears to be too many missed opportunities and too many "wrong" calls.

I would like to believe that NHRA will pay attention to the complaints of the racers with this new points system and make adjustments accordingly, and for the majority of them that would mean going with what I'll refer to as the Elite Eight all the way from Indy through the Finals without the cut to a Final Four with just two races remaining.

You never can tell, maybe that will happen. I do know that at the PRO meeting on Friday at Indy there was complete unanimity in their opposition to the Final Four concept.

Jon Asher

 

[none]

Kelly,

I understand and appreciate your dedication to your team. I feel the same way about the Arizona Wildcats, but don't the crowds diminish at the end of the year if they are not in contention? They do around here, and that’s the point I was trying to make. (I still love ya!)

Buzz,

I would never "Black List" someone just because they don't agree with me. I love a good discussion or debate. We don't have to see everything eye to eye, I mean really, what fun would that be?

Jim Young,

I also have known Jeff Wolf from his days at Firebird. He doesn’t like the new system, that’s fine. But to write what he did, in my opinion is WAY over the line. I guess I don’t understand why it’s OK for him to have his opinion, but it’s not OK for me to have mine. The real issue I have with Jeff’s story is, why can’t he make his point without resorting to personal attacks? I only said that “I don’t care what he thinks”. Would I have more credibility if I had called him names? If you have lost respect for me, I’m sorry about that. But, The next time I need printing, I will still be calling you, and I will continue to recommend your company whenever I can.

Alan

 

[mick]

Yes...Just like it was in the NFL last season when a team went 15-1 during the regular season, and followed it up by laying an egg and losing in the second round of the playoffs.

hey! don't talk about my beloved MN Viqueens, they did that a few years
ago too.
nascar and now nhra seem to beleive they now need a playoff season,
same as most other non-automotive sports.......remember these cars on the
dragstrips and ovals provide entertainment disguised as a 'sport'. If the
entertainment value has the potential to fall off due to a runaway points
lead, i can see the value of a 'play-off' season. Time will tell, i say give it
a shot. Reasonable minds will prevail - if they don't..........IHRA?

 

[Fast Al]

Having been on both sides of the fence in the drag racing community, I probably look at this situation from a different prospective than most of the previous posters.
I understand how a lot of racers might feel that management (NHRA), does not consider or respect their opinions concerning the points system, or any other governing rules for that matter. Having run a pro class car in the past, I have had those exact feelings myself. But I have also been exposed to the other side of the coin, by trying to operate and profitably run a small NHRA facility in the past. The bottom line in my opinion, is that if the head (NHRA) does not continue to grow and thrive, the body, (racers and fans) will die. By making this points change, they are surely taking a risk with attendance, continued growth, and profitability. What the hell is wrong with taking a risk, trying new things(new to NHRA anyway). I feel that stagnation is a bigger risk in the long run. As Alan said "Give it a chance", it might just work to everyone's advantage. It ain't set in concrete, and could be moulded into something that works for most everyone involved. I am also one feels that the final eight is a good place to draw the line for the championship, not four or two. Thats what I would have voted for, if this were a democratic organization, but like it or not, it isn't and probably never will be. Lastly, I also feel that personal attacks have no place nor purpose in this situation.

 

[ProStockJunkie]

Quote from Susan Wade's article in NSSN-Shock wave surges through NHRA Points Leaders

From Susan's latest article in National Speed Sport News titled "Shock wave surges through NHRA point leaders" about the new points system among other things .

"It seems NHRA wants to be like NASCAR (which might not be an appropriate role model for drag racing ), what NHRA ought to do is compensate its drivers properly, spend some of its ample money on effective marketing campaigns for the sport itself and for its drivers and stop having adversarial relationships with the sports public-relations reps."

 

[knightrider]

You want more fans in the stands? Quit screwing with a points system that ain't BROKE , and try to do some ADVERTISING.
They will be here (ennis) in 2 weeks and nothing yet on any tv or radio or paper.
Had one ad on speed during a nascar show.