NHRA Pro Stock HP (1 Viewer)

In addition, the scoop represents a significant component of the car's frontal cross section and a very lossy one at that. I'd expect the aero drag to go up with the cube of the velocity -- does the supercharging effect of the scoop more than make up for the aero drag it introduces?

Good points Mike! However, if you look at your quote above, you said aero drag (not power required) and that was the only thing I was clarifying. But I agree with what you're saying about power required and the fact that the drag never really reaches steady state. Good discussion!
 
Thanks for the reply Scott. I don't want to turn this thread into a freshman physics class, but I do want to quickly clarify the difference between aero drag force and the horsepower needed to overcome that drag.

You are correct that the Bernoulli drag force goes as the square of the velocity. At steady-state (assuming the car is not accelerating) sufficient power must be made to overcome that drag. Power is the rate of doing work (work = force*distance), so you differentiate work with respect to time, and find that the steady-state horsepower needed to maintain constant velocity increases as the cube of the velocity. Accounting for acceleration, which is needed for a more realistic model, turns this into a nonlinear problem.

To get a rough idea of what this means: Assume 1400 HP is needed to attain 205 mph in the lights. Getting the speed up to 209 mph would require an additional 86 HP from the motor.

OK, back to your regularly scheduled programming.

It took a bit of thinking, but I too figured it out..... ahhhh....

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OOPS!
 
I've often wondered about this. The idea of the hood scoop is to provide a mild supercharging effect, but at what price? The intake flow rate and presumably the horsepower will be dynamic, ie. changing as a function of the car's velocity. My guess is that the air flow inside the hood scoop will be an aerodynamic mess when the car is really moving. I'd expect there'd be all kinds of density pockets, separation, and turbulent eddies as flow makes a right angle turn to the the carburetors. You've got to think that would produce different output than what is seen in an aerodynamically `quiet' dyno test.

In addition, the scoop represents a significant component of the car's frontal cross section and a very lossy one at that. I'd expect the aero drag to go up with the cube of the velocity -- does the supercharging effect of the scoop more than make up for the aero drag it introduces?

I'm sure people have thought about these tradeoffs for decades, but it sure looks like a non-trivial problem to me.


Warren Johnson talked about this a number of years ago in his old "Speed Reading" column. If I remember correctly he said that the hood scoops make 80 hp, but take 60 hp to push through the air at 200. The numbers may have been 100hp gain and 80 to push through the air, I don't remember exactly but I'm pretty sure it ended up at a 20hp gain.
 
Assume 1400 HP is needed to attain 205 mph in the lights. Getting the speed up to 209 mph would require an additional 86 HP from the motor.

OK, back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Or, simply source the "Stratus", "GTO", "Cobalt", and "G6" bodies from Fantasy Designs (you know, there in Never-Never Land) and you can gain speed darn near every year.

Yeah, I know, there's one in every crowd. I merely saw a chance to once again be a crusty old geek wishing things were the way they used to be and somewhat rooted in reality. At least enough reality that the lamp graphics didn't determine the car.

Seriously, thanks to the contributors for a stimulating thread. I've seen Mr. Yama****a's brainpower previously and it's always a treat.

I can see why you don't post more, Scott. The stoopid filter won't let your name be printed. Dern computers....
 
O.K Back by popular demand, here's the spring story,

When I was with Nickens one of the biggest issues was valve springs (it still is). The life expectancy of an intake spring was maybe three runs if all went well and the driver didn’t over-rev the thing. Exhaust was a little more forgiving, but not much. At the time we were trying to shift at 9500. The HEMI ran more RPM then the wedge stuff at that time. If the driver ran it to 9600 in any gear the eight intake springs would be junk. At 9750, just get out a box, because you didn’t even need to check them, all 16 were going in the trash and you would be beating the retainers loose. Anybody who has ever been around high RPM engines knows exactly what I mean by that.

Even when the car ran well and the driver hit all the shifts on time we would come back and find two or three springs that needed to be changed. Now assuming that they didn’t wear out while the car was being towed back from the far end, when did the springs give up? Third gear? Or forth? Or as the car crossed the stripe? If you can figure that out, you are better than I am. It seemed pretty obvious that if we could keep the springs up to pressure that the valves would stay under control and there had to be some performance that was there for the taking if only we had better springs.

One advantage that we had was that we were the factory MOPAR team and Chrysler was one of the principles in Ilmor. If you haven’t heard of Ilmor they are an engineering firm in England they are involved with Formula 1 and with Penske on his Cup stuff. Racing is their whole world and we’re talking about some really smart guys. Initially we sent them all of the valvetrain components that we were running at the time and explained that we couldn’t keep springs on the thing. The answer that they came up with was that no one in their right mind would use these parts in any engine much less trying to race this stuff. Keep in mind that a F-1 engineer has probably never seen a push rod-LOL So they sent a couple of guys to Houston to check out first hand what we were doing and try to find a better way. One of the guys had a PHD in mechanical engineering and the other was right there with him in the brains department. They had spent some time working on Cup stuff for Penske so they had a little understanding of the type of engine we were running but when they saw the first Pro Stock HEMI they were blown away. We explained to them that a new spring would lose 40 lbs or so on the first run. They told us that if a Cup spring lost 8 lbs after 500 miles they would be fired. We had the right guys work on this now.

Step one was on the Spintron. I was the Spintron operator, if you’re not familiar with that machine is has a 75 HP electric motor and it will spin the valvetrain components without worrying about blowing up an engine. So you can check stability, valve float and bounce and any number of things. If you drop a valve on the Spintron you will be down about ten minutes. So it is the perfect tool to find the limits of stuff. The valve movement is tracked in real time by a laser in the cylinder. Just Google them if you want more info. One of the toys they brought from Ilmor was a load cell that goes under the spring (we machined a deeper pocket to accept it) and would tell us spring seat pressure IN REAL TIME with the valvetrain spinning at 9500 RPM. It was cool! And really enlightening. What we learned was that the spring was so out of control above about 7200 you couldn’t tell what was going on. There was a lot of room for improvement and they believed that they could help us. I jokingly told them that all we wanted was a spring that would run to 10,000 RPM and last for a season. His response was “Why would you change them after only one season?” We were on the same page. Two and a half days of trying to wear out the Spintron and Dyno and they had the information that was needed to go build us springzilla. They contacted us a couple of weeks later and said that after analyzing the data from the tests the main problem was that the camshaft was so aggressive that when the engine was running at high RPM the valve was being pushed open so fast, the first coil of the spring would smash into the second coil before it could move out of the way. The second coil would then be sent flying into the third coil and so on. Now just for kicks, get yourself a valve spring and try to get the first coil to touch the second one without the second one moving. They had an answer, they could build us a new spring that would stand up to what we were trying to do with it. We couldn’t wait.

They came back to the states a few weeks later with the new spring. It didn’t look much different but they assured us they would cure all of our valvetrain issues. It was time to fire up the Spintron. With the old springs if I took it to 9800 RPM the spring would break almost immediately and I do mean in seconds, before you could even get a reading. I put one of the new springs on and ask where do you want to start (8000 was the usual point). He said it didn’t matter I couldn’t break it. I love a challenge so I set the machine for 10,000 and ask again, he ask what I was waiting for so I hit start! At ten grand the valve was as happily under control at it used to be at 8000. I couldn’t believe what I was watching. After about thirty seconds at 10,000 he told me I could probably take my hand off the emergency stop button, because his spring wasn’t going to break. We spent most of that afternoon doing more testing on the Spintron and this spring was magic. It controlled the valves as good as the old springs at lower RPM and didn’t wear out. The first spring lost 10 lbs after ripping on it all afternoon. It was now Dyno Time.

The next morning we put one of the race engines on the pump, warmed it up and made a baseline hit. Then we changed the springs. We made four or five pulls and it was within a half a horsepower. Changed springs back and it repeated perfectly. The next race was Reading and we couldn’t wait. Those guys wont know what hit them. We had the magic springs. We had found the cure for the biggest problem we had and couldn’t wait to unleash it on them.

Reading didn’t go quite like we had planned, both cars qualified bottom half and lost first round. We just never got a handle on it. We also made ten runs (five with each car) and never had to change a spring. Back at the shop the engines went back on the pump and were fine, right where they should be. We checked the cars, and couldn’t find any problems. It was just a bad weekend. Off to the next race, the cars were still slow. No reason, nothing we could find wrong, just slow. We went testing when we got back and couldn’t get the cars to run, finally after exhausting everything we could think of David ask what’s different? We had changed ignition boxes, batteries, carbs. You name it we changed it. The only thing left was the springs, but we knew they were good, we could check them and they were fine.

The next day at the track testing we opened up with a 6.86 199 not very good. Second run 6.87 199. David ask if we had any of the old springs, yeah, there were still some in the trailer. Lets change them. O.K. you’re the boss, but the springs aren’t the problem, they are fine.

New (old) springs, back to the line 6.80 202 That’s more like it. Back at the trailer two springs down 100+ lbs and one with a broken inner. Replace three springs, back to the line 6.79 202 but it still can’t be the springs, can it? We put the magic springs back on and ran 6.86 198, change to the old springs and made one last hit for the day. 6.79 203 and wiped out four springs.

When we called the Ilmor guys and explained it to them, they decided that you just can’t help some people. I have still never found anyone that can explain it to me and if I hadn’t been there and lived it I’m not sure I would believe it either, but they springs wouldn’t go down the track. We started changing 3 or 4 springs every run and being fast again.

And that’s the spring story, next time we’ll talk tires………

Alan
 
Alan, thanks a bunch for reposting that story!

The only thing I can think of is that the amount of time the valves were actually open, and how far open, was different with both springs. Basically you guys had managed to compensate for the "weak" springs so much so that when you got the good springs that acted properly it threw off all the compensating you had done and the valve timing was now much different. :confused:
 
Seriously, thanks to the contributors for a stimulating thread. I've seen Mr. Yama****a's brainpower previously and it's always a treat.

I can see why you don't post more, Scott. The stoopid filter won't let your name be printed. Dern computers....

LOL Dan! Martin Thomas pointed out to me in an earlier thread that my name was PC'd. I used to use that as an icebreaker when meeting new people...it was fun spelling out my last name emphasizing the right letters. :p And thanks for the kind words, coming from someone with your experience that is very high praise. It was the articles you wrote that inspired me to always pay attention.

And thanks Alan for reposting "the spring story". It was just as cool today as when you originally posted it.
 
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Alan, any chance that the old springs acted weaker for the first few hundredths of lift as the coils were bouncing into each other? I'm wondering if it was acting like a launcher cam and opening the valve much quicker than the lobe was actually trying to open it with the lifter possibly not touching the lobe. Would a bigger/more aggressive cam work better with the "magic" springs?

The alky funnycar I worked on was the same way with intake springs. Hit a slick spot or miss a shift by a few 100 rpm and all intake springs were done. Break a spring totally and usually parts and fire came out. They quit using titanium springs as they stayed perfect when checked all the way up until the point they broke. A "normal" spring would start to weaken and you could catch it and change it out.
 
LOL Dan! Martin Thomas pointed out to me in an earlier thread that my name was PC'd. I used to use that as an icebreaker when meeting new people...it was fun spelling out my last name emphasizing the right letters. :p And thanks for the kind words, coming from someone with your experience that is very high praise. It was the articles you wrote that inspired me to always pay attention.

And thanks Alan for reposting "the spring story". It was just as cool today as when you originally posted it.

Since this is the NHRA area, I'm not sure how many people will care too much for the info I'm about to give but I figure it's right on topic regardless.

At Budds Creek this year I ran into an old friend who has NHRA experience but is now crew chief for one of the top IHRA PS teams. We didn't have that much time to talk but I did manage to ask him what a good IHRA engine was making these days.

After a bit of hesitation, he told me that 1750 to 1780 would be a competitive number. I honestly think my jaw dropped a bit since those numbers would have been good for an Alcohol car not very long ago.
 


And that’s the spring story, next time we’ll talk tires………

Alan

What an incredible story Alan. Do you know if the HEMI's are still eating springs like this?

Also, I remember that the first couple years the new HEMI was more competitive at lower altitude than at tracks like Vegas, Denver, ect. That doesn't seem to be the case anymore. Do you happen to know the reason for this?
 
It almost sounds as if the "killer" springs weren't suited to the changing RPM the engine encountered when on the track, versus a dyno "pull". From Dropping the clutch pulling the engine down to quickly accellerating RPM, 1-2 shift drop and subsequent engine acceleration and so on for 2-3, 3-4 and 4-5 shifts.

I know absolutely nothing about the Pro Stock engines apart from the fact that they a 500ci Pushrod V8's. Bu tto me, that appears to be the only variable in terms of engine RPM.

As someone else said, maybe with the "crappy" springs the initial hit the first and second coils were encountering was actually punching the vale open. I am assuming that they didn't detect any valve float onthe spintrom with the old springs? Alan?
 
Good suggestions, we spent a lot of time trying to find a definitive answer and never came up with anything that was conclusive. My thought is that it has something to do with the harmonics of acceleration. As was mentioned the Dyno controls the acceleration of the engine and in the car it is gaining RPM at a much faster rate. Our Dyno was set to let the engine rev up at 600 RPM per second, and in the car it is as much as five times that. (The rate of acceleration depends on what gear the car is in).The engine doesn’t (at least it better not-LOL) drop RPM when the clutch comes out. It obviously does on gear changes. The Spintron should have shown if the valve was being launched less with the trick springs than with the old ones, but we could overlay graphs from both and couldn’t see the difference and believe me we looked for anything that we could find.

You also have to keep in mind that stuff is happening at an incredible rate of speed. The valve lift is over an inch, and at 9000 RPM each one is opening and closing 75 times per second. And when you think about it that way, it’s a wonder some of this stuff works at all,

Alan
 
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