Silly Savage
Nitro Member
Eaxctly....it's not like the NHRA can crash test a bunch of cars to see what would happen.....although that would be great.
Mark Niver - RIP. Short Sand Trap? (1 Viewer)
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Eaxctly....it's not like the NHRA can crash test a bunch of cars to see what would happen.....although that would be great.
clwill
Nitro Member
After every tragic incident like this there seems to be a fairly limited range of responses. The same things come up again and again as people travel the grief spectrum from shock through to anger and so on.
But the fact is, as Gordon eloquently notes above, the rule book is written largely in blood. Every sentence in that book has really only three origins: blood, controversy, or money. The bulk of it is the result of people being maimed or killed. As the investigation takes place, rules are tightened and lives are surely saved. This will happen here as well. There is a significant portion of it that is there because of controversy, people either confused about or deliberately pushing past the rules of fair play force clarifications in the rules. And finally there is the economic part, all the "decals must be here" and so on.
NHRA has in the past, and certainly will here, investigate and make changes to the rules. We've already seen the brake specs change, and if you watch the video, that certainly seems like it would've helped Mark. Hitting that net at a much slower speed would likely have made all the difference. I fully expect to see further enhancement of the catch systems. And I would also not be surprised by dragster chassis changes. Who knows, maybe we will see larger tires, and brakes, on the front of them.
But please let's remember Mark, and please let's try to keep our heads as we try to advance the sport we love.
But the fact is, as Gordon eloquently notes above, the rule book is written largely in blood. Every sentence in that book has really only three origins: blood, controversy, or money. The bulk of it is the result of people being maimed or killed. As the investigation takes place, rules are tightened and lives are surely saved. This will happen here as well. There is a significant portion of it that is there because of controversy, people either confused about or deliberately pushing past the rules of fair play force clarifications in the rules. And finally there is the economic part, all the "decals must be here" and so on.
NHRA has in the past, and certainly will here, investigate and make changes to the rules. We've already seen the brake specs change, and if you watch the video, that certainly seems like it would've helped Mark. Hitting that net at a much slower speed would likely have made all the difference. I fully expect to see further enhancement of the catch systems. And I would also not be surprised by dragster chassis changes. Who knows, maybe we will see larger tires, and brakes, on the front of them.
But please let's remember Mark, and please let's try to keep our heads as we try to advance the sport we love.
Gordon
Nitro Member
Kinda the point I was trying to make with my previous post, though I used a lot more words to do so. For every problem that NHRA, or whoever, discovers and solves BEFORE there's a mishap, there are at least 10 things that will get over looked until AFTER there's an incident.
And frankly, even with all the crash testing that goes on with passenger cars and trucks, there are still a lot of lives lost in those passenger cars and trucks every day.
As I said in my original post, it doesn't make it any easier to swallow - it's absolutely painful and saddening, but there's virtually NO WAY to prevent all fatal crashes.
hotrod
Nitro Member
Three things that I would like to mention.
One...why did the chutes come off of his car? I'm assuming the brackets broke, but maybe the chutes failed where they attach to the brackets. Maybe they need to attach the chutes a little bettter, but then you get into a situation where the chutes could be too strongly attached and cause serious injury if they snagged on something. Don't know. I'm not that smart. We've seen the chutes come off a few times and strangely enough it's been mostly on the alcohol cars. Maybe the chutes need to be replaced regularly.
Two, back when I sold my old rear engine top fuel dragster that Woody Gilmore built and bought a new chassis from S&W, the first thing I noticed was that long steering shaft running through the car. The old car had the outside steering like the funny cars. Man that thing was hard to turn while holding onto the brake handle. I almost ran over Shelly Howard once because of that old style steering.
To ease my mind a bit, I added another wiggle joint. We used a 3/8 Snap On wiggle joint if I remember correctly as well as a new support near that joint. I was so scared of being impaled. When I bought new cars later on I had pretty much totally forgotten about that long steering shaft.
Three, the cars must be set up where a chute failure won't take out the brake lines. Mark still had brakes but others haven't been so lucky.
We can't bring Mark back but maybe his tragedy will save others much in the same way that Eric Medlin's accident did.
One...why did the chutes come off of his car? I'm assuming the brackets broke, but maybe the chutes failed where they attach to the brackets. Maybe they need to attach the chutes a little bettter, but then you get into a situation where the chutes could be too strongly attached and cause serious injury if they snagged on something. Don't know. I'm not that smart. We've seen the chutes come off a few times and strangely enough it's been mostly on the alcohol cars. Maybe the chutes need to be replaced regularly.
Two, back when I sold my old rear engine top fuel dragster that Woody Gilmore built and bought a new chassis from S&W, the first thing I noticed was that long steering shaft running through the car. The old car had the outside steering like the funny cars. Man that thing was hard to turn while holding onto the brake handle. I almost ran over Shelly Howard once because of that old style steering.
To ease my mind a bit, I added another wiggle joint. We used a 3/8 Snap On wiggle joint if I remember correctly as well as a new support near that joint. I was so scared of being impaled. When I bought new cars later on I had pretty much totally forgotten about that long steering shaft.
Three, the cars must be set up where a chute failure won't take out the brake lines. Mark still had brakes but others haven't been so lucky.
We can't bring Mark back but maybe his tragedy will save others much in the same way that Eric Medlin's accident did.
Nemo
Nitro Member
I don't disagree that each accident increased the safety in one way or another (unless you ask the Pro Stock guys who are still bent about rule changes that were more about track prep then their cars). I guess what I'm saying (and maybe not as much in this case) is how secretive the NHRA is. They throw a rule change out and expect the racing community to take that THEIR findings are the end all be all of the problem (and we've seen on many occasions they are not). Why did the chutes come off......most of us will never know, we may see a rule change that we can make an assumption off of, the touring pro/semi pro alcohol guys close to the Niver's may find out....but then it will end. I want to build an alcohol car, I can fab it myself, how do I know I wont make the same mistake in mounting (or not inspect the the chutes for a certain defect...or was it a problem with that brand of chute), because I guarantee that much like Russel (that I assume something came through the cage judging by the new covers they mandated) we will never really know (why I like the NIOSH FF Fatality records...it's public record...are firefighters lives any less private or sacred than a racers....also if you look at it there are no specifics on the victims injuries or sensitive info released, just the fact of the incident.).
If a NIOSH was done on this wreck we would know: The attachment method of the chute, the brand of chute, what the post failure inspection of the attachment and chute lines was, what kind of brakes he had, how long the shut down was, how fast he was traveling when he hit the nets, how tight the nets were, what the G forces recorded on the Racepack showed...etc...and imagine if we had that on all bad wrecks...maybe we could start seeing REAL patterns that were backed by numbers and could make informed decisions on this stuff...instead of NHRA wants carbon fiber brakes now...thank god that fixes everything.
Another thing to look at, if companies and engineers outside of NHRA see these things happening and they get the urge to fix it (due to wanting to make money, or even looking for a inventive challenge) you stifle them by not releasing all the information you can. I think it was Bill Gates that said if you want to be successful, open yourself up to innovations from outside your inner circle.
BTW....nice having some good adult conversation here instead of trashing and slamming. Hope I'm not coming off confrontational, just expressing an opinion.
If a NIOSH was done on this wreck we would know: The attachment method of the chute, the brand of chute, what the post failure inspection of the attachment and chute lines was, what kind of brakes he had, how long the shut down was, how fast he was traveling when he hit the nets, how tight the nets were, what the G forces recorded on the Racepack showed...etc...and imagine if we had that on all bad wrecks...maybe we could start seeing REAL patterns that were backed by numbers and could make informed decisions on this stuff...instead of NHRA wants carbon fiber brakes now...thank god that fixes everything.
Another thing to look at, if companies and engineers outside of NHRA see these things happening and they get the urge to fix it (due to wanting to make money, or even looking for a inventive challenge) you stifle them by not releasing all the information you can. I think it was Bill Gates that said if you want to be successful, open yourself up to innovations from outside your inner circle.
BTW....nice having some good adult conversation here instead of trashing and slamming. Hope I'm not coming off confrontational, just expressing an opinion.
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Paul
Nitro Member
Looking at the chute attachment methods should definitely be done, but you have to take as a given that occasionally chutes will not deploy or could get tangled or burnt off with a nitro car.
As I posted on the other thread on this topic, I think for most part the sand pit did as planned, with the exception of a safety net that was way too stiff.
To minimize potential chassis failures and to minimize the max G load the driver is exposed to you need to decelerate the car over the longest distance possible. To my eye the sand did scrub some speed off the car but then the stiff safety net caused the car to decelerate much too quickly, crumpling the chassis.
I belief that if the first net had been designed to be more compliant, either made from a very stretchy material or with the end attachments connected to a device that allows them to extend with increasing force (ie such as spring loaded spool or similar system) then the sand pit would have worked correctly.
A reasonable goal would be for the first net at the half pit position to decelerate the car with a controlled deceleration system (spring loaded spools or similar) by the time it reaches the end of the pit. If there is room for it an additional compliant net at the end of the pit would be best.
Note this "controlled deceleration" method with spooled connections on the ends is essentially the same method used on carriers to safely decelerate the planes, with exception of using a net instead of the hook and cable method used on the planes.
I believe its clearly the responsibility of the NHRA to begin the design, testing and implementation of an improved sand pit system as soon as possible, and I've also made this recommendation in a separate email to them.
As I posted on the other thread on this topic, I think for most part the sand pit did as planned, with the exception of a safety net that was way too stiff.
To minimize potential chassis failures and to minimize the max G load the driver is exposed to you need to decelerate the car over the longest distance possible. To my eye the sand did scrub some speed off the car but then the stiff safety net caused the car to decelerate much too quickly, crumpling the chassis.
I belief that if the first net had been designed to be more compliant, either made from a very stretchy material or with the end attachments connected to a device that allows them to extend with increasing force (ie such as spring loaded spool or similar system) then the sand pit would have worked correctly.
A reasonable goal would be for the first net at the half pit position to decelerate the car with a controlled deceleration system (spring loaded spools or similar) by the time it reaches the end of the pit. If there is room for it an additional compliant net at the end of the pit would be best.
Note this "controlled deceleration" method with spooled connections on the ends is essentially the same method used on carriers to safely decelerate the planes, with exception of using a net instead of the hook and cable method used on the planes.
I believe its clearly the responsibility of the NHRA to begin the design, testing and implementation of an improved sand pit system as soon as possible, and I've also made this recommendation in a separate email to them.
After Jim Head's blow up in Topeka, he said on national TV, (I'm paraphrasing) "These cars are as safe as they ever have been". What can NHRA, legitimacy, say about some of the tracks they have races on?
All of the race cars running in NHRA must have absolute specific safety systems for every race, but does NHRA have absolute specific safety specs for each track? No, many tracks are a different lengths, including the sand trap. Etc.
Do racers need to have safety system customized for what ever track they race on?
All of the race cars running in NHRA must have absolute specific safety systems for every race, but does NHRA have absolute specific safety specs for each track? No, many tracks are a different lengths, including the sand trap. Etc.
Do racers need to have safety system customized for what ever track they race on?
Kris
Nitro Member
Joe, I know it doesn't look like it on TV, but I drove on the road behind it twice on Thursday night and up close and personal, it definitely looks like it's 200 feet long. I can't believe I even was able to guess that by eyeballing it.
I knew the shut down area looked different than last year... I've driven around that track in my car every which way possible over the past few years, but, I just couldn't put my finger on it. I didn't trust my memory. But, I do remember trying to get a good look at it Thursday night both times we drove by it.
Gordon
Nitro Member
I posted this in a different thread, but decided to move it here, where I believe it's more appropriate.
I wonder, and I must once again point out that I am not "in the know" when it comes to this stuff, but I wonder if anyone has gone back to the rule book to review what safety measures were in place in Top Fuel and Funny Car when they were running the numbers the alcohol cars are running today? Perhaps coupling that information (great safety record, by my recollection) with new technologies might shed some light on potential areas of improvement.
I wonder, and I must once again point out that I am not "in the know" when it comes to this stuff, but I wonder if anyone has gone back to the rule book to review what safety measures were in place in Top Fuel and Funny Car when they were running the numbers the alcohol cars are running today? Perhaps coupling that information (great safety record, by my recollection) with new technologies might shed some light on potential areas of improvement.
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TR
Nitro Member
NHRA needs SFI specs for the track. See how they like it.
n/a
Nitro Member
I agree!!
If the racetrack surface is set @ 1,320' (or 1,000') at all facilities, then shouldn't the shut downs be standardized to the longest shut down from venue to venue also?
Ok, so now you say "that can't be done because individual track confines for expansion / lengthening is the problem or issue"...
Leaving us where...
What do we do, to standardize the tracks from venue to venue?
(I have my own opinion on that, but I won't start that war here).
Larry Fulton
Pacific Raceways has a VERY long shutoff area compared to most tracks. I was watching this on ESPN3 and got a different view than the TV News footage. They stayed with the car for several minutes after the crash. The front of the car folded up in such a way that the tip of the chassis encroached the cockpit at just the wrong place where it fit between the roll cage rails. Two safety Safari guys had to fold the chassis back out so they could get to Mark. That is when they shut off the camera.
How could this have been prevented? First, have seperate chute mounting points so the chances of losing both chutes is lessened. Maybe a "reserve" chute? Secondly, the first net was way too stiff\tight. It was like hitting a wall. Maybe this was a response to the last two fatalities where the nets ripped loose, maybe it is up to the track to choose a net. The net needs some engineering and needs to be consistent from track to track. There is also some question if the sand trap was just laid on top of asphalt. I can't imagine that would be adequate. Gravel on top of asphalt usually causes bad results when mixed with cars.
Bob G.
How could this have been prevented? First, have seperate chute mounting points so the chances of losing both chutes is lessened. Maybe a "reserve" chute? Secondly, the first net was way too stiff\tight. It was like hitting a wall. Maybe this was a response to the last two fatalities where the nets ripped loose, maybe it is up to the track to choose a net. The net needs some engineering and needs to be consistent from track to track. There is also some question if the sand trap was just laid on top of asphalt. I can't imagine that would be adequate. Gravel on top of asphalt usually causes bad results when mixed with cars.
Bob G.
I'm going to use this more into the Neal Parker Crash, look at Marty's crash, it had a similar culprit with the parachute that Neal had, however, I wonder in the Case of the Follow a Dream & Tequila Petron teams, maybe because they run more nationals and their cars are a bop more heavy duty to take the damage, whereas Neal Parker was making his NHRA National Event Debut and his 2nd event with a Screw Blower which he debuted at Maple Grove's Points Race weeks prior. Maybe Neal's car, while it may have past Tech, maybe just wasn't quite up to snuff safety wise because this is a little team who probably only runs divisionals and a couple national Events, the common niche of Alky Teams are guys who go by their back pockets and a little help from their friends, and run a few nationals a year (examples Eric Lourie, Dan Roman, Dan Pomponio, Ken Winward, Bruce Horner, Brandon Greco, etc) They can only play within their limits, not everybody is an Uncle Frankie or Jay Payne or Tony Bartone or even Ferro or Harker, and some teams can get more than others.
I walked my local track today which has the NHRA mandated pea gravel. The stuff is way better than what I thought it was. Theirs has not been tilled in a while but I still sunk down in it. The reason in my opinon that Niver's car and others have gone over the top of it is because of the bucket and the containment system belly pans under the car. they just float over the top.
That trap stopped a 4000 lb Mercedes at a street legal event a couple months ago that was going 120 mph under acceleration when it hit the trap. It stopped right at the net, 160 feet from the start of the trap.
Dean
That trap stopped a 4000 lb Mercedes at a street legal event a couple months ago that was going 120 mph under acceleration when it hit the trap. It stopped right at the net, 160 feet from the start of the trap.
Dean
Bross Hawg
Nitro Member
I just had a friend get in a car accident here at home. He had his young daughters in his pickup traveling on a state hiway. A guy driving a van was talking on his cell phone on an intersecting hiway and blew the stop sign. JJ t-boned the guy. JJ got pretty beat up and one of his daughters got hurt, but everyone survived. We asked about the possibility of getting a stop light put in at the intersection. We were told that there has to be so many fatalities in such an amount of time before the state is "required" to put one in. It is all about spending money unfortunately...
Neal had run IHRA for years before moving to NHRA after IHRA dropped Alcohol Funny Cars.
It may be a good idea to wait for the state police report before drawing any conclusions.
Jim
FC138fan
Nitro Member
(In MN anyway) An intersection has to meet one of 8 warrents in order to get federal money for the signal. A city, county, or state can put in a signal anywhere they want to if they want to pay for it though. But at a cost of $250,000 for a basic signal system, we then have to answer to the local governing agency to justify spending local money on it. The governing agency then has to decide if they want to spend local taxpayer money on a signal.
Traffic signals are definatley a big issue in design, but fortunately lost of research has been done to make the process go somewhat easy.
Similarly, road design has a huge history, and lots of standards. So do the vehicles driving on them. Therefore our designs minimize the likelyhood of a fatal accident in most situation. (trying to tie this to the subject of this thread). I read Gram Light said that it is very difficult to design a trap system to safely stop every car that can potentially run into the barriers. I will give him that, their design has to stop everything from a full bodied stock 70's muscle car to a fuel funnycar. A net that safely stops a 4000 lb Dodge might be too stiff for a dragster weighing half that.
I guess some more thought needs to be put into that system.
For more info see attached linkhttp://www.dot.state.mn.us/trafficeng/publ/tem/2009/Chapter-09.pdf
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