JFR Fined- $10,000 Part (1 Viewer)

TD5023

Nitro Member
narrative or not, there was a period starting in the late 80's where the nhra enjoyed tremendous success due to innovation
30+ years ago, there was a whole lot less refinement than there is now for the NHRA pro classes. At some point, any combination will reach its endgame under a rules package, where productive innovation just isn't going to be there anymore. The innovation that you and many others want today comes more from new classes entirely, where rules are much more lax from not being updated and amended for decades.

In this particular case, the notice says that injector hats were altered. The rulebook specifically says "Any NHRA-approved modification must be performed by the original manufacturer only." If JFR modified a hat, then they broke the rules, plain and simple. It's not innovative to give yourself an unfair advantage that is outright prohibited.
 

The Counterfeiter

Nitro Member
Lots of "Force" involved here (pun intended). Heard stories about early C/F injectors being sucked flat. Saw a 2-hole at JFR in '08, they were certainly experimenting then.
 

twostep

Nitro Member
Speaking from the sidelines as a total nitro amateur, this sort of stuff drives me nuts. Innovation is the backbone of drag racing including the top of the food chain, the pro fuel classes. And unless the modification allowed the injector to exceed the maximum injector hat air intake area (65 square inches?) or the mod somehow potentially created a safety hazard, why should a team be denied the opportunity to do something to it to gain an advantage? Isn't that the whole idea? Gain an advantage? What happens if JFR decides to run a different camshaft profile in their engines in order to gain an advantage over the competition? Is that allowed or does the cam manufacturer have to submit the stick to NHRA for approval prior to it being installed? I'd hate to think the valves in a Force engine might actually stay open longer than those in a Schumacher piece....:rolleyes:

Yes, it's the rules and NHRA says JFR broke them. That's fair. But like anything else, if you don't like the rule, or the law, then work to get it changed. And in my humble and inexperienced opinion, some of these rules that stifle the spirit of innovation need some rethinking.
 

fueller42

Nitro Member
In this particular case, the notice says that injector hats were altered. The rulebook specifically says "Any NHRA-approved modification must be performed by the original manufacturer only." If JFR modified a hat, then they broke the rules, plain and simple. It's not innovative to give yourself an unfair advantage that is outright prohibited.
What if JFR was the manufacturer ?
 

ROCKY

Nitro Member
Lets really try to stop all cheating/creative thinking, fighting, and trash talking in racing. Trying to find a competitive edge. See how boring we can make it. What should be highly illegal is Tony Pedregon in the broadcast booth. With him the difference between innovation and just plain cheating depends on who was caught.
 

Ramjet

Nitro Member
Apparently you can't even clean up the rough edges (and maybe a little more 😉) with a DuMore & a Sanding Roll without sending the "Hat" back for approval. In the "Stock" 4 Stroke Go Carts we sometimes had to buy 20/30 Rods - Pistons - Carburetors to get a near perfect one and hope we could sell them for someone's Roto Tiller. That doesn't sound realistic with the cost of a Carbon Fiber Hat.
 

SoCal Racer

Nitro Member
30+ years ago, there was a whole lot less refinement than there is now for the NHRA pro classes. At some point, any combination will reach its endgame under a rules package, where productive innovation just isn't going to be there anymore. The innovation that you and many others want today comes more from new classes entirely, where rules are much more lax from not being updated and amended for decades.

In this particular case, the notice says that injector hats were altered. The rulebook specifically says "Any NHRA-approved modification must be performed by the original manufacturer only." If JFR modified a hat, then they broke the rules, plain and simple. It's not innovative to give yourself an unfair advantage that is outright prohibited.

Along those lines I think an interesting conversation would be, what was done and why was it done? Any system, even highly refined ones, are not perfect and innovation yields small gains - but gains nonetheless. Realistically a fuel car makes more power than it can use and the trick to getting it down the track lies in power management, so making more power isn't really necessary. I have no information that this is what or why, just thinking out loud... but what if they modified the hat to provide better fuel/air distribution? While that could be construed as something to increase power, it also could be argued that it helps the longevity of the engine (as in no ka-boom) if it prevents wet or lean cylinders. After all, making it to the finish line under power is a good way to get a win - although not a competitive advantage unless no one else can do it.

I do agree that rules are rules however, so if JFR wanted a change to the hats they needed to go though the proper channels. And that's why they got spanked.
 
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Ramjet

Nitro Member
What if JFR was the manufacturer ?
If JFR was the MFGR. the part still has to go to NHRA and be approved again. Any modification requires re-certification before it can be run in competition. Alan Johnson had a situation like this on his heads a few years ago. Not only does it have to be approved it has to be available to everyone weather or not they run those parts - UNLESS - it is (was) for a certain Motorcycle company with the initals H. D. It appears that everyone has an equal chance, some just have a little more equal chance. Also - they did not specify any particular car just JFR so most likely they as well as everyone else have been checked now that the Tech people know about it.
P.S. The rules say the part can be confiscated if they want to.
 
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Ramjet

Nitro Member
Along those lines I think an interesting conversation would be, what was done and why was it done? Any system, even highly refined ones, are not perfect and innovation yields small gains - but gains nonetheless. Realistically a fuel car makes more power than it can use and the trick to getting it down the track lies in power management, so making more power isn't really necessary. I have no information that this is what or why, just thinking out loud... but what if they modified the hat to provide better fuel/air distribution? While that could be construed as something to increase power, it also could be argued that it helps the longevity of the engine (as in no ka-boom) if it prevents wet or lean cylinders. After all, making it to the finish line under power is a good way to get a win - although not a competitive advantage unless no one else can do it.

I do agree that rules are rules however, so if JFR wanted a change to the hats they needed to go though the proper channels. And that's why they got spanked.
What was said on TV was that what they did improved the launch and the reaction times, not the HP so much. A few Thousants or even more so a Hundredth is BIG in today's world.
 

TD5023

Nitro Member
Any system, even highly refined ones, are not perfect and innovation yields small gains - but gains nonetheless.
That's why I worded it the way I did. There are certainly ways to improve any existing product. However, if it costs $100,000 in R&D to gain .01, I think most would agree it isn't worth it. It goes back to ROI. Up to now, most of that discussion has revolved around sponsors, but it applies to team expenditures, too.
 

Ramjet

Nitro Member
That's why I worded it the way I did. There are certainly ways to improve any existing product. However, if it costs $100,000 in R&D to gain .01, I think most would agree it isn't worth it. It goes back to ROI. Up to now, most of that discussion has revolved around sponsors, but it applies to team expenditures, too.
To Me - That is exactly why it is wrong for NHRA to not allow trying things on Qualifying or Race Day or even Monday after instead of spending 100 K and then trying to get something approved. If grinding on the Hat works notify NHRA that you ground on the Hat and let everyone else figure out where - Because you can only keep a secret in Drag Racing if you keep your team members all locked up forever with out any phones or social media anyway. Just like in the Navy "Loose Lips sink Ships (Secrets)".
 

TD5023

Nitro Member
To Me - That is exactly why it is wrong for NHRA to not allow trying things on Qualifying or Race Day or even Monday after instead of spending 100 K and then trying to get something approved. If grinding on the Hat works notify NHRA that you ground on the Hat and let everyone else figure out where - Because you can only keep a secret in Drag Racing if you keep your team members all locked up forever with out any phones or social media anyway. Just like in the Navy "Loose Lips sink Ships (Secrets)".
This is true, unless there is a good reason the rule was implemented in the first place. Maybe it was a response to people modifying hats and making them structurally unstable. I don't know the origin of this one in particular, but think about the laid-back headers. If that didn't get regulated, teams would have to either choose to be uncompetitive or run a car that was very unstable at speed. Without knowing the real purpose of the hat rule, I can't make a judgment.
 

mgty3whlr

Nitro Member
kinda like when Schumacher was trying to get the canopy approved. Most thought that it was for an aero advantage but it was more for safety meaning, If a engine exploded, no parts would enter the cockpit. They had to add a wicker bill on the back. Now after that, some were crying that that was a performance advantage because the "wicker bill" was diverting the air into the blower hat for more air. However, even Alan Johnson said, The small amount of air from the wicker bill wouldn't even make a difference for a power advantage.
 
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