After qualifying yesterday the Harley's and the DSR Suzuki almost ran identical times and now in the 1st rd the DSR Suzuki outran the Buel and Harley's by 2 hundreths. It appears that all 3 brands are real close, but on Friday in Sonoma and in Denver 2 weeks ago the Harley's had them covered. Is this a scenario where the Harley's are making better runs on a consistent basis where the other brands are struggling with the consistency of their tune-up?

I suppose thats the million dollar question

Are the Harleys holding back a bit? Is this just a track or conditions that lean towards the others? Have the other bikes caught up some?

I think 1 race doesn't pose a trend yet. I think data on runs needs to be looked at over a multiple races and not just best times as off the top of my head I would guess the Harleys would lead that. Like you said though they also just may be more consistant so checking the spread of the times is important too.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c380/98percentnitro/AandKs%20Pics/Sandbags.jpg

September come soon mon....:D

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c380/98percentnitro/AandKs%20Pics/Sandbags.jpg

September come soon mon....:D


Just stopping in like I do from time to time and I couldn't resist. This picture is EXTREMELY FUNNY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!:D

on Friday in Sonoma and in Denver 2 weeks ago the Harley's had them covered. Is this a scenario where the Harley's are making better runs on a consistent basis where the other brands are struggling with the consistency of their tune-up?

The Harleys and Buells have an advantage at altitude due to the large difference in cubic inches, less air up there.

Obviously not enough parity since both Hardley's were in the final again. :rolleyes:

Obviously not enough parity since both Hardley's were in the final again. :rolleyes:

Brent, is it truly a horsepower advantage or is the Harley team putting a more consistent tune up in the bike? In Rd1 Smith had 2 hundredths on the Harley and Buel combo, but lost a ton of ET in the 2nd and 3rd rounds where the Harley's only lost a little bit of ET which is normal given the change in air conditions. I just think people are too quick to rush to judgment and say add weight to the Harley's when it could be they are actually on top of their tune-up and the other teams are not.

Well, our dsr team made the perfect pass 1st round... And some of the Harley guys did not... 2nd round the track was slick and we and everyone slowed but the Harley's.... They slowed but not what they should have... Then 3rd round the track was even slicker but WOW Hines improved.... Thats funny how the heat of the day and when they run someone that can run fast they turn it up.... But has anyone noticed that the last 2 races when the Harley's run the finals against each other they slow them right up.... We are running for 3rd place this year... This is the last thing that I will say on this til NHRA does something ..... I hope Andrew, Eddie, Bryon,Terry, and the whole Harley team are happy now cause ya'll are killing our class.... I know they are going to read this so make the bikes public like every other class has too...

:rolleyes:

There's a rule of thumb that says, "For any given displacement, and with all things being as equal as they can, the more cylinders an engine has, the more power it will make."

This is the rationale behind the 4-cylinder bikes having to pull more weight per cubic inch, than the 2-cylinder bikes, right?

I understand that much... and, NHRA's efforts to create parity between the two types of motors by requiring different weight breaks between the two.

What I do NOT understand (and, maybe someone who DOES, can explain it in such a way that I can understand it), is the contention that "bad air" hurts one engine design more than the other.

Why is that? They both have 4 valves per cylinder, (I assume), and horsepower production is all about cylinder-filling and BMEP, so why would a smaller engine with 4 cylinders, suffer more than a large one with two cylinders?

Anybody have a clue why this is true, IF indeed, it really IS true?

I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I'm curious. Any information will be appreciated.

Bill

I think that nhra is getting there pockets filled by harley and that is reason nhra is looking or there shoulder. That new 4 valve head the got has gave them a bigger horsepower range over the psm class. I think nhra should add 20 more pounds of weight or have them go back to the 2 valve heads to make the class more fun to watch.The last three races have not been fun to watch. Nhra you look like a bunch of jackasses.

What I do NOT understand (and, maybe someone who DOES, can explain it in such a way that I can understand it), is the contention that "bad air" hurts one engine design more than the other.

Why is that? They both have 4 valves per cylinder, (I assume), and horsepower production is all about cylinder-filling and BMEP, so why would a smaller engine with 4 cylinders, suffer more than a large one with two cylinders?

The twins have more air to work with due to the larger displacement, it's that simple.

When will the new Suzuki motor and body hit the track?

Were there motorcycles there? Never noticed.

IMO, why aren't people talking about the great driving job that Eddie has been doing all year, and Andrew has as of late. Yes, their bikes are deadly consistent and fast, but the other bikes that are just as fast out there aren't helping themselves by redlighting and sleeping at the tree. NHRA will jump the gun yet again and add weight to them so that the others stop crying.

not knowing much about the bikes, i have to ask, if these Harley's have such an advantage, how come nobody else has attempted to build one. V & H have been the only team racing these bikes for about 4 or 5 years now, and i figure why not just resort to the ol' ' if ya cant beat'em, join'em ' theory ???

The twins have more air to work with due to the larger displacement, it's that simple.

Sort've...Injection (twins) vrs Carburetion (inlines) has been a factor also.

As interesting as sandbag statements are, they in reality are libelious, fact-less, not provable allegation.

Is the consensus the Harley's need to slow down, or the Suzuki's a boost?

I'm guessing as long as the separation is 5 hundredths the status will remain quo.

The landscape may look different if Hector wasn't consistently snatching defeat from the hands of victory also.

I don't think they will get anymore weight as long as a Suzuki is running quicker than they are.

When will the new Suzuki motor and body hit the track?This notice showed up a month ago on CompetitionPlus.com: The Suzuki Disadvantage? (http://www.competitionplus.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=10687&Itemid=7)

Regards
PiPPi
HarleyDrags.com (http://HarleyDrags.com)

IMO, why aren't people talking about the great driving job that Eddie has been doing all year, and Andrew has as of late. Yes, their bikes are deadly consistent and fast, but the other bikes that are just as fast out there aren't helping themselves by redlighting and sleeping at the tree. NHRA will jump the gun yet again and add weight to them so that the others stop crying.

This was where I was going with my post, it appears on paper the Harley's are much more consistent than the competitors. Matt said his run was perfect in rd 1, and his bike fell off in the later rounds due to track conditions. Could it be the V&H team is doing a better job reading the race track and tuning their bikes? I think that team deserves some credit for being consistent instead of saying they need more weight. With Matt running low et by 2 hundredths and Hector running with the Harley's, I don't see weight coming anytime soon.

One reason why you might see a V-Twin maintaining performance when on a slippery track when the 4 cylinders are slowing down more, is the fact the firing order of the 4 cylinder is much smoother, with little to no time interrupted between power pulses, when the tire is struck because of the firing order and smoothness of application of power it will continue to spin.

The 60 degree V-Twin however has a extreme amount of time between power pulses, (read this as recovery time). Cylinder fires, then a couple of degrees later the next one fires, then a century later the cycle begins again. The time the crank takes to get to the next firing cycle is sufficient for the tire to remain stuck to the track.

Look at the black mark left after a 4 vs. twin.

Hill climbs, dirt tracks, and other motorcycle sports a V-Twin or a parallel twin seem to be able to stay stuck better than the constant powered 4 cylinder motors.

Has anyone tried making a 4 cylinder fire like a twin?

Sandbagging, anybody and everybody that has been in front has done and will continue to practice the fine art of only winning by a little.

s.r.

Drag Racing Internet Magazine - Competition Plus.com - PRO STOCK MOTORCYCLE RACERS CRY FOUL (http://www.competitionplus.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8628&Itemid=24)

You knew it was coming.

Has anyone tried making a 4 cylinder fire like a twin?

Don't know about in drag racing, but in moto GP Honda had their "Big Bang" motor that fired all four cylinders within 70 degrees of crankshaft rotation. I believe the current yamaha moto GP motor is a "long bang" where it fires 3 in rapid succession and then one after a little longer pause. Both are for the exact reason you stated (giving the tire more time to regain traction).

Has anyone tried making a 4 cylinder fire like a twin?

Yamaha did this in MotoGP, and now on the production R1. I think it's called a crossplane crank. Each crank pin is 90 degrees from the next, and uses an uneven firing interval of 270-180-90-180. I don't know how much power the PS Suzuki's make but the MotoGP bikes are up around 230-240 from 800cc's.

Andrew was quicker at Sonoma 4 years ago then they were this weekend.

Seems like rules changes etc... have succeed in keeping the Hines motors in check.

There have been rules changes to help the 4 cylinders become more competitive with the twins. For some teams these rules and weight changes have been moderately beneficial, sadly the sport is yet to see any real advancement.

Have the R and D efforts for the other teams been that badly taxed they have not been able to increase their own programs to be on a more level field after 4 years?

One teams success should not punished because of other teams lack of the aforementioned.

s.r.

Has anyone tried making a 4 cylinder fire like a twin?
s.r.

We did it years ago with a 750 Honda drag bike. The ignition already fires that way, so it was only a matter of making a cam for it.

Jay

not knowing much about the bikes, i have to ask, if these Harley's have such an advantage, how come nobody else has attempted to build one.
Kind of hard for anybody else to build one when V&H has the exclusive on them!

not knowing much about the bikes, i have to ask, if these Harley's have such an advantage, how come nobody else has attempted to build one. V & H have been the only team racing these bikes for about 4 or 5 years now, and i figure why not just resort to the ol' ' if ya cant beat'em, join'em ' theory ???

V&H I think have the rights to the harley bikes. There have been people whating to buy a harley but nobody can afford 2 million dollars. You can buy a buell for around 130,000 thousand and a suzuki for less. I think in the nhra hand book the bikes are to by sold at fair market valve and 2 million is not fair valve.V&H does not want nobody to have a harley. This is what I think.

simple solution. if all the non-harley drivers think it is not fair, then boycott. sure you will miss some races, but it is counterproductive to participate in something you think is rigged against you and then complain about it afterward. unite and let nhra explain to the fans why there are only 2 competitors. until there is a boycott, we can assume the non-harley riders are not serious about the severity of the "parity" issue.

V&H does not want nobody to have a harley. This is what I think.
Harley does not want anyone to have a Harley unless it is a factory team. It has been that way for over a century, long before Mr. Vance and Mr. Hines were born.

You can buy a buell for around 130,000 thousand and a suzuki for less.

You can get Angie McBride's Buell for $70,000 dyno'd and race ready. Rumor has it, you can get a Harley for $300,000.

You can get Angie McBride's Buell for $70,000 dyno'd and race ready. Rumor has it, you can get a Harley for $300,000.

Angie's buell was a use bike 2 or 3 years old and if you can buy a race ready harley just has Andrew rides for 300,000 thousand you should buy 3 or 4 for and sell them because you can make some big money because I would buy the first one for 20,000 thousand dollars more. That is why it is a RUMOR!!!!!!!!!

Were there motorcycles there? Never noticed.If you see a motorcycle thread, Craig..just leave it alone. It's really getting annoying.

Angie's buell was a use bike 2 or 3 years old and if you can buy a race ready harley just has Andrew rides for 300,000 thousand you should buy 3 or 4 for and sell them because you can make some big money because I would buy the first one for 20,000 thousand dollars more. That is why it is a RUMOR!!!!!!!!!

The majority of the bikes out there aren't new so, I'll go out on a limb and say Angie's bike, as sold, would be at the very least, a potential solid qualifier. It is a documented 6.90 bike. Right on the index.

Who has made a documented and legit $320,000.00 offer for a Harley and been turned down? Closest I've heard is Matt Smith posting he'd buy an old bikes and or motor, but I'll speculate that no offer was actually made. Having said that, Mike, if you've got the cheddar, make the offer. Make the response public. At that point, rumor becomes fact. Until then, it's "RUMOR!!!!!!!!!", not because of the reason you stated, but, because of the actual lack tangible fact.

Don't know how much I can help with the whole rumor mill thing, but when Antron and I were racing for DSR and the US Army. The Army wanted us on Harleys. You know,.. cuz of the "American Made" moto. Well anyway, as I understand it, the Army did contact the appropriate people to make the offer to obtain a couple of those Harleys. I am not sure what numbers were passed between the two parties, but I can tell you that the Army spent A LOT of money on our team but they were NOT willing to spend the asking price for those Harleys. That's the only info I was given.

Just a tid bit of info for you guys.

Well Let Andrew or Eddie tell us what they will sell the bikes for.... I don't care if it's the old ones from last year or new one's now..... Lets see the prices???? Lets see how fair the motorcycle class is now.....

Well just for the record you two are plane NUTTY for riding those two wheeled machines. Well except you Angelle. Yer purdy!

Hey Johnny what is your comment about the harley price know, sents Matt & Angelle have wrote on the subject. Maybe im not so dumb after all. Plus there has been two more teams wanting to buy harleys, one before buell was built & one just after buell was built & they own 2 harley dealerships & they could not get one. It is all about the price,

It is all about the price,

I don't believe that. It will take more than money to ride the hog.

I don't believe that. It will take more than money to ride the hog.

john you are right it is not about the money, it is the fact that vance & hines do not want any body to ride the harleys, because they do not want to get out run with the stuff they have built. that is why the prices tag is crazy.

Only so many people can sandbag in the same range every race...Just sayin.... :)

Well just for the record you two are plane NUTTY for riding those two wheeled machines. Well except you Angelle. Yer purdy!
:o;) Thank you.

Actually you are right about the nutty part. It runs in my family as well. We're all a bunch of crazy cajuns down here! Here's a pic of me catching dinner the other day. :D

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m126/angelle3x/frogs.jpg

:o Thank you.

Actually you are right about the nutty part. It runs in my family as well. We're all a bunch of crazy cajuns down here! Here's a pic of me catching dinner the other day. :D

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m126/angelle3x/frogs.jpg
what a tease:)

I talked with Mrs. Antron in Denver while we were waiting in the rain and i am glad you're doin good. Although many of us miss you racing, You're happiness is more important to many of your fans.
But don't be a stranger. Come see us at the track some time.

Well just for the record you two are plane NUTTY for riding those two wheeled machines. Well except you Angelle. Yer purdy!

Angelle, its pretty clear that you were put on this planet to race Pro Stock motorcycles.

Its what you excell at, you seem and probably feel most alive when your are doing it, people really enjoying watching you race, its your destiny.

I hope the economy turns around quickly so you can get back where you belong, I'm working as hard as I can to do my small part (we're tight, but I haven't had to lay anybody off yet).

Paul Titchener
www.power-t.com

I haven't chimed in on this subject in a long time, and don't plan on doing so again after this. I just had to throw out some facts that people really need to know to better understand this situation. I believe after 6 years of my life in the motorcycle business that I have a pretty good understanding of what is going on.

First off, the biggest argument always starts at engine comparisons. It's 160 cu.in. for the twins vs. 101 for the inlines, or 2622 ccs. vs. 1655. The reason originally for the large gap, as described to me by George Bryce, was due to the fact that a push-rod v-twin could not turn anywhere near the RPMs that an I4 could. Well that theory was thrown out when HD got the DOHC motor this year. So why did displacement stay the same? Doesn't make any sense. From what I'm told, the Buell's will turn about 9500 RPMs, please correct me if I'm wrong. The HD motors, from my keen hearing, seem to be turning much higher. I'm willing to bet they can turn 11.5K if they really wanted. I'll give a wild guess of 11k. That's quite a bunch over the Buell. Advantage HD. Now the I4s will go through the traps at around 13.5K. What keeps that from being a huge advantage is the fact that the I4 motor doesn't make the torque a v-twin does. V-Twins, from what I have seen on the dyno where I work, generally keep a more linear torque/hp curve than an I4. Thus the I4s will want to be at that high RPM as much as possible where the V-Twin will be a little more forgiving.

Second is the, "well how do you know they're sandbagging?" issue. The problem is there isn't an answer! Nobody other than the V&H crew knows the answer to that question. Because they own the only two bikes that are created the way the V-Rods are, they control everything they do. If they were to sell a HD to a customer, they would lose that control. There were rumors back in the day the V&H considered possibly leasing the V-Rod. The catch was this, they would do all the work on the bike, tune it, you would just ride. That way they could still control everything. Either they figured out that would be a bad idea, or it really was just a rumor. Regardless, until someone outside the V&H camp gets a V-Rod, we'll never know what they are truly capable of. And if you are a competitor, that's scary. There isn't any other class in the NHRA where that fear exists. Not even Pro Stock. And the reason that fear exists is because NHRA doesn't force HD to follow the rule where your parts have to be available to the competition at a fair price.

That's what I know about the situation. If I'm wrong, PLEASE correct me! I didn't write this to lie and I'm always open to learning the facts.

How ya been Jordy! Thanks for your input.

I kinda wonder how many people's Lives she has helped as a Nurse? And will in the future Paul. Either way what ever she chooses to do, Angelle will be happy with it. Angelle, its pretty clear that you were put on this planet to race Pro Stock motorcycles.

Its what you excell at, you seem and probably feel most alive when your are doing it, people really enjoying watching you race, its your destiny.

I hope the economy turns around quickly so you can get back where you belong, I'm working as hard as I can to do my small part (we're tight, but I haven't had to lay anybody off yet).

Paul Titchener
Power Technology (http://www.power-t.com)

Thanks for chiming in, Angelle..

And Jordy..that's a nice in depth explanation.

Andrew is a member here..hey Buddy!! What do you think? You have the only parts available? New motor this year? Would really like to hear your side..other than the 'you guys don't know squat stuff''

Fill us in on why Harley will win the championship this year..and next if things don't change.

Hey maybe the new Suz will rock!! Wouldn't that be the shiznitz?

Regardless, until someone outside the V&H camp gets a V-Rod, we'll never know what they are truly capable of. And if you are a competitor, that's scary. There isn't any other class in the NHRA where that fear exists. Not even Pro Stock. And the reason that fear exists is because NHRA doesn't force HD to follow the rule where your parts have to be available to the competition at a fair price.

No one will be buying a V-Rod from Andrew, Eddie, Vance & Hines or anybody else. Harley paid every penny it took to build those beasts and they aren't going anywhere. Harley owns them, and if you show up with whatever money someone tells you they are going for, the price just doubled. Harley is not new to the racing game, they have been at it for over 100 years.

Andrew is a member here..hey Buddy!! What do you think? You have the only parts available? New motor this year? Would really like to hear your side..other than the 'you guys don't know squat stuff''

Fill us in on why Harley will win the championship this year..and next if things don't change.


David, what does Andrew have to gain by responding? I see this as a no win situation for that team because someone will always be critical of them because of their exclusive deal with Harley and how Harley is the official bike of the NHRA. No one was *****ing when GT Tonglet was riding the Harley and the bike would rarely qualify during their first year and even in Andrew's first year the bikes were mid pack. I am just trying to look at this from their perspective.

No one was *****ing when GT Tonglet was riding the Harley and the bike would rarely qualify during their first year and even in Andrew's first year the bikes were mid pack. I am just trying to look at this from their perspective.

Paul, that statement is untrue. Suzuki supporters have been upset with this since day 1 of the rules change. I think it has been proven that you can't build a race ready motor in one year. The new Suzuki motor has been in development for over 2 years and has yet to hit the track. The reason, they want the motor to be competitive before it's in competition. HD decided to put their bike on the track while working out the kinks. That's why it didn't qualify, then after about 2 years of development, they were qualifying. The V-Rod was breaking records in just it's 3rd year of competition. Look back at G-ville 2004 when they did a pretty good job of running over the competition. They've won championships every year from '04-06, then Matt Smith broke up their party in '07, and Eddie got the title last year. Then the HD got a rules change AFTER winning 4 out of the past 5 championships. 3 years ago, the displacement for Suzukis was changed from 1508 ccs. to 1655 ccs. just so they could stay competitive. It's just strange that Suzuki got a rules change to stay competitive, but HD got one AFTER winning a championship.

I'm in no way trying to attack the V&H team on this issue. They're playing by the rules that were handed to them. They may have lobbied for those rules, but NHRA did little to consult with non-HD teams about the rules changes that were made. That's what really upset other teams with this last set of rule changes. That V&H crew works as hard as any other team out there. But this I know, when V&H were building Suzuki's, you could go to them and buy a motor that was at least close to having the same HP that Matt Hines had in his bike. If they could do that with the HD, they probably would, they're in the business to make money. Hell, they still supply most of the Suzuki competitors with engines. I really don't believe that the V-Rod not being for sale has anything to do with V&H, it has to do with the people that pay their bills.

Drag Racing Internet Magazine - Competition Plus.com - MATT SMITH SPEAKS HIS MIND (http://www.competitionplus.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=11101&Itemid=6)

I wonder what GT could tell us.

Well Let Andrew or Eddie tell us what they will sell the bikes for.... I don't care if it's the old ones from last year or new one's now..... Lets see the prices???? Lets see how fair the motorcycle class is now.....

Quit your whining geez. Do you ever stop?

Jeff,

It's not whining when you have to pull virtually half again as much weight per cubic inch as the bike in the other lane... and the exact amount of weight difference is decided by fiat...

4-valve Harley 640 pounds/160 cid. 4 lbs./cu. in.
4-valve Suzuki 595 lbs./ 101 cu. in. 5.89 lbs. cu. in.

That's a 47-percent disparity...


Let 'em all pull the same pounds per cubic inch and see who's "whining" then...
(Running a Harley in PSB makes about as much sense as running a Ford Flathead in Pro Stock.)

(Running a Harley in PSB makes about as much sense as running a Ford Flathead in Pro Stock.)

This has just about got to be the most on-the-mark comment in this entire thread.

Sean D

Quit your whining geez. Do you ever stop?

He's not whining. He's just the only one that has the balls to speak up. :)

Using the "Race on Sunday, sell on Monday" idea; could someone tell me where it benefits Harley-Davidson by running a combination on the race bikes that can't be bought on the open market? There's no such a thing as a "standard" street version Harley-Davidson with a 4 valve head, is there? Where is Harley making their money on their products if we can't purchase what we see on the track, despite what it might cost??

The V-Rod is a 4 valve cylinder head design. If anything the changes that were made over the winter to the V and H entries made them more like the bikes that are offered for sale on the show room floor.

Using the "Race on Sunday, sell on Monday" idea; could someone tell me where it benefits Harley-Davidson by running a combination on the race bikes that can't be bought on the open market? There's no such a thing as a "standard" street version Harley-Davidson with a 4 valve head, is there? Where is Harley making their money on their products if we can't purchase what we see on the track, despite what it might cost??

It's the same reason that GM never considered killing the Corvette even when faced with bankrupcy - it provides a halo effect to the entire company and also to GM itself.

I would bet big money that 75% of the H-D buyers in the last 5 or 10 years truly believe they are operating one of the most powerful motorcycles in existence. Harley wants to keep that image going.

Bill made a classic comment regarding a Pro Stock flathead. I watched a H-D Destroyer make a series of passes on a cool evening night. That's their limited production, turn key drag race bike. It's equipped with wheelie bars, ignition kill and everything else that's needed to race in competition. It is miles away from being street legal. The times? How about an 11.30?

When you see the competition's bone stock 600 cc bikes running deep into the 10s the problem is obvious. A top of the line Suzuki or Kawasaki can run in the 9s all day long, and for the same amount a Destroyer costs would be in the low eights or quicker.

At one time the process was for a manufacturer to study the rules and then strut their engineering knowhow to produce a better product. We've moved to the point that the companies are expecting rules to be changed so as to make their product a winner even if it was born as a shiny, polished, aluminum turd.

I truly have mixed emotions on this issue. I am very much a Buy American person, but I also value technology over all. And I truly believe that if Harley-Davidson hadn't entered the class when it did, Pro Stock Motorcycle would have been history by now.

I wish I knew the answer.

Nice shot Dan.

Hell, my Dad had a 900cc Sportster in 1969..ported out..polished..P cams that ran 10.90.

It is politics..at it's purest form. The Buell was competitive last year. Not going to look it up..but there were many builders that got hosed when their 4 valve got shot down..which has stink written all over it.

NHRA has just eliminated the competition..by not playing on a level field. I hope the new Suz motor kicks ass now. Hey I'm a Harley/V&H fan but this just wreaks of bullsh!t.

And Jeffrey..why would you make a comment like that? It's not whining when you look at the facts..it's calling out the rules that make this a no-win situation.

I watched a H-D Destroyer make a series of passes on a cool evening night. That's their limited production, turn key drag race bike. It's equipped with wheelie bars, ignition kill and everything else that's needed to race in competition. It is miles away from being street legal. The times? How about an 11.30?



Dan;
I believe 11:30s is what a standard V-Rod runs. The Destroyers are high 9s.

Some time back HD brought some Destroyers to Fontana for the press to ride. One of the guys ran a high 9 and was booted because he didn't have an NHRA license which you have to have to run under 10 flat on a bike.

Jay

Thanks for the clarification, Jay.

I don't remember the bike leaving very hard or pulling hard through the gears for that matter. Of course, I may have misrembered the digit; if so then I apologize. Either the team was clueless and it was indeed an 11.30 or I was clueless and it was actually a 10.30. I am 100% sure it was not in the nines.

Either way, I regret any misinformation in my post.

Thanks for the clarification, Jay.

Either way, I regret any misinformation in my post.

Dan, you can't really over state that real V-RODS kinda suck.;)
...and I own two Harleys.

It's simple to me. There are whiners and there are winners. I've never heard Matt or Andrew, GT or Eddie go public and whine about the other guys because they aren't able to cover their performance. I have heard an awful lot of others whine to the point of rule changes against them exclusively. Any chance we are punishing them for superior engineering, design, engine/transmission/clutch/setup performance and testing success every time they get another 20 lbs that no one else gets? Any chance they work harder/smarter/longer in order to keep their top shelf performance that draws so much attention? When the bar gets raised, be prepared to jump higher or go out but bad-mouthing the victor does nothing more than make you look like a poor sport.

Maybe the reason they were more consistent when the track went sour was that all that stinking extra weight they carry was actually keeping them stuck to the racing surface?

Whiners or winners. Check the record books.

It's simple to me. There are whiners and there are winners. I've never heard Matt or Andrew, GT or Eddie go public and whine about the other guys because they aren't able to cover their performance. I have heard an awful lot of others whine to the point of rule changes against them exclusively. Any chance we are punishing them for superior engineering, design, engine/transmission/clutch/setup performance and testing success every time they get another 20 lbs that no one else gets? Any chance they work harder/smarter/longer in order to keep their top shelf performance that draws so much attention? When the bar gets raised, be prepared to jump higher or go out but bad-mouthing the victor does nothing more than make you look like a poor sport.

Maybe the reason they were more consistent when the track went sour was that all that stinking extra weight they carry was actually keeping them stuck to the racing surface?

Whiners or winners. Check the record books.



Another advantage, they can move that extra weight around where it will do the most good!

It's simple to me. There are whiners and there are winners. I've never heard Matt or Andrew, GT or Eddie go public and whine about the other guys because they aren't able to cover their performance. I have heard an awful lot of others whine to the point of rule changes against them exclusively. Any chance we are punishing them for superior engineering, design, engine/transmission/clutch/setup performance and testing success every time they get another 20 lbs that no one else gets? Any chance they work harder/smarter/longer in order to keep their top shelf performance that draws so much attention? When the bar gets raised, be prepared to jump higher or go out but bad-mouthing the victor does nothing more than make you look like a poor sport.

Maybe the reason they were more consistent when the track went sour was that all that stinking extra weight they carry was actually keeping them stuck to the racing surface?

Whiners or winners. Check the record books.

I might be inclined to agree with you were there not numerous instances where competing technology has been outlawed. Remember the Gann head and the Schumacher cassette transmission?

Both were examples of exceptional R&D work which was never allowed to enter competition. THOSE guys were working harder to win but the NHRA would not allow their inventions.

I'm not trying to start an argument, but I honestly can't ever remember when the H-D racers were turned down for new parts. Does anyone have an example?

Issues such as this are the cause of all the commenting about PSM parity. I can't imagine anyone familiar with drag racing not believing that Byron Hines is one of the most inventive minds ever to compete. But if he's allowed to put his creations into competition, why can't the others?

I had long visits with both Byron Hines and George Bryce at Indy this weekend, and, believe it or not, this subject never came up. There is just a huge lack of interest in NHRA PSM in the mainstream motorcycle drag racing scene.

There were a number of former pro stock bikes there that were converted into pro mods.

It's simple to me. There are whiners and there are winners. I've never heard Matt or Andrew, GT or Eddie go public and whine about the other guys because they aren't able to cover their performance. I have heard an awful lot of others whine to the point of rule changes against them exclusively. Any chance we are punishing them for superior engineering, design, engine/transmission/clutch/setup performance and testing success every time they get another 20 lbs that no one else gets? Any chance they work harder/smarter/longer in order to keep their top shelf performance that draws so much attention? When the bar gets raised, be prepared to jump higher or go out but bad-mouthing the victor does nothing more than make you look like a poor sport.

Maybe the reason they were more consistent when the track went sour was that all that stinking extra weight they carry was actually keeping them stuck to the racing surface?

Whiners or winners. Check the record books.

You obviously don't follow PSM, and let me tell you how I know. Last year, there was a Buell rider who was outrunning everyone. He, along with other Buell riders, got penalized 20lbs. for his efforts and hard work. Do you know what rider that was? Matt Smith! The same guy you're apparently calling a whiner.

Here's the problem with your above statement. NO ONE has the same engine configuration as the V&H bike. So there is NO ONE to even attempt to build a better engine than V&H. Oh yea, if someone wanted to build an engine similar to the V&H DOHC 4-valve 160 cu.in. motor, they couldn't! NHRA would not allow it! George Bryce tried. He was denied, even though there is a production Buell with a DOHC 4-valve motor in it. It's known as the Buell 1125R. Matter of fact, Matt Smith had a body made off of that same Buell motorcycle last year, and was denied the ability to run it. So how can you say someone is building a better setup when NO ONE can even run the same, or a similar setup? You CAN'T!

In the AHDRA, those Destroyers are running low 9s 9.1 - 9.2 (they have a spec heads up class). Not bad for a showroom drag bike that was sold for $30K and some have sold for even as little as 20K new.

To my best understanding, the Pro Stock classes have always had rules that the basic engine components (blocks, heads, valvetrain, etc.) required to build an engine from the participating manufactures had to be openly available for purchase by any competitor.

To keep the playing field level these rules make sense, and I think its a pretty poor decision that the NHRA is not enforcing these rules in the PSM class. It definitely makes it appear that they favor their economic interests over maintaining fair competition, and that makes them and the sport look pretty bad.

I doubt that Harley Davidson's desire to limit their engine parts to just their factory team is driven by any desire to have only the factory team win races. Its more likely driven by the high costs they would incur to put these parts in even a limited production run, as it appears many of parts are "one-offs".

But if they wish to compete in a way that is perceived as fair by their competitors and the fans in general they should play by the rules everyone else does and make the basic engine components available to anyone.

Paul T.

I doubt that Harley Davidson's desire to limit their engine parts to just their factory team is driven by any desire to have only the factory team win races. Its more likely driven by the high costs they would incur to put these parts in even a limited production run, as it appears many of parts are "one-offs".

But if they wish to compete in a way that is perceived as fair by their competitors and the fans in general they should play by the rules everyone else does and make the basic engine components available to anyone.

Paul T.

The parts for all intents and purposes are for sale. It appears that no one wants to pay the price. The cost may be justified by the exact reasons you specify. I'm of the opinion that the issue of availability isn't nearly as the NHRA's willingness to stifle the development of the other platforms. In this day and age, Cassette Transmissions, Gann Heads, and the Smith-Buell body, should probably be out there. The legislation should probably be more relative to the results of the development than the development itself. There is an unwritten index in place. The current problem is that under the current rules, all configurations can't run consistently near index. The cost to run the index doesn't appear to be an issue or there would be no 4 valve Harley head or a Euro-Suzuki (which is why the Gann decision is puzzling).

I'd be willing to bet that VHR weren't the principals who were instrumental in the rejection of the outlawed Gann head. The Smith body...well that's a mystery that really makes no sense.

What's amazing to me is all the anti-VHR/Harley sentiment that exists. Is it not NHRA that is consistently making the questionable decisions?

You obviously don't follow PSM, and let me tell you how I know. Last year, there was a Buell rider who was outrunning everyone. He, along with other Buell riders, got penalized 20lbs. for his efforts and hard work. Do you know what rider that was? Matt Smith! The same guy you're apparently calling a whiner. . . .

You are incorrect believing I was singling out Matt Smith or any other single person with my post. The point was simply generic in context as the NHRA got themselves into this mess by attempting to constantly legislate parity while allowing and denying such diverse and evolving combinations. Believing for even a minute that these bikes would all be equal given the ever-changing weights, evolving parts & circumstances is akin to believing A Fuel could evenly compete with Blown Alcohol in all circumstances. It won't ever happen! As a result, those who elect to participate in this class while working feverishly to stay competitive, which I believe most are doing, must also accept the confines of the sanctioning body's rulings as the TAD class must.

There are no easy fixes to this parity question but the decision to run in the class or not can be - and, worst of all, believing that the NHRA will provide the solution to the problem is an unwise notion, in my opinion.

I'd be willing to bet that VHR weren't the principals who were instrumental in the rejection of the outlawed Gann head. The Smith body...well that's a mystery that really makes no sense.

What's amazing to me is all the anti-VHR/Harley sentiment that exists. Is it not NHRA that is consistently making the questionable decisions?


Johnny I have to agree. Byron has a solid history in PSM, and it never included having to have engines that no one else had in order to win.

Harley Davidson®, well that's another story.

There are no easy fixes to this parity question but the decision to run in the class or not can be - and, worst of all, believing that the NHRA will provide the solution to the problem is an unwise notion, in my opinion.

The solutions in PSM are far easier than TAD. You could easily legislate all of the bikes to 6.95-ish Sea Level Index tomorrow, based on todays data. The constant unknown is the Harley's primarily because you can only compare them to themselves.

Me, I would start with a c.i. limitation on the Harley's making them smaller. They'd even get a diet and weigh the same as the Buells. I'd leave the Buells alone. The Suzuki's would get the Cassette and the Head. At the end of the year, Eddie or Andrew are probably still champs but, Bryce probably returns in 2010 and Matt has a chance to compete.

To make the Harley's faster with a blind eye to the rest of the class was a curious NHRA decision. It's not like they weren't fast before the head.

To think VHR wouldn't be a dominant presence regardless of legislation is silly. They are that good. If you race PSM, they are the benchmark...always is, always wuz.

He's not whining. He's just the only one that has the balls to speak up. :)

Hey, What you trying to say Amanda? That I don't have,.... oh wait,... you're right,... I don't have those.:D:D He He!! ;)

Congrats on your marriage chicky! Miss you!

I kinda wonder how many people's Lives she has helped as a Nurse? And will in the future Paul. Either way what ever she chooses to do, Angelle will be happy with it.

Thanks guys!! I am very happy right now. This break has been REALLY good for me. I had absolutely NO IDEA how much I needed it!! Who knows what's in store for me, but like you put it Paul, I will be happy and I will make the most of it. I do believe that I am done with PSM though. I'm ready for something different. I loved my 13 years of PSM and am so grateful to have had the experience. Whatever happens, I want you guys to know that your support has meant the world to me. Even the bashing that I've taken, when place was more like nitroHATER, has made me a better and stronger person. I have truly been blessed!! Thanks YALL!!!

;)Angelle

Who knows what's in store for me, but like you put it Paul, I will be happy and I will make the most of it. I do believe that I am done with PSM though. I'm ready for something different.

Hows about Prostock car ? That class could really use a lady in the mix to bump up interest and Angelle would be just the ticket IMO !!

Thanks guys!! I am very happy right now. This break has been REALLY good for me. I had absolutely NO IDEA how much I needed it!! Who knows what's in store for me, but like you put it Paul, I will be happy and I will make the most of it. I do believe that I am done with PSM though. I'm ready for something different. I loved my 13 years of PSM and am so grateful to have had the experience. Whatever happens, I want you guys to know that your support has meant the world to me. Even the bashing that I've taken, when place was more like nitroHATER, has made me a better and stronger person. I have truly been blessed!! Thanks YALL!!!

;)Angelle


OUCH. My excitement level for watching this class just lost a few points! I guess I have to root for JUST Doug Horne now, since he's from here!

You are incorrect believing I was singling out Matt Smith or any other single person with my post.

Well it's a pretty strong statement to call out these PSB teams and say they're whiners! The Buell teams and the one Suzuki team not running V&H power are working their tails off to compete. If the V-Rods wouldn't have been given the 4-valve head over the summer, I doubt you would hear half the complaining that's coming from the PSB pits.

Believing for even a minute that these bikes would all be equal given the ever-changing weights, evolving parts & circumstances is akin to believing A Fuel could evenly compete with Blown Alcohol in all circumstances. It won't ever happen! As a result, those who elect to participate in this class while working feverishly to stay competitive, which I believe most are doing, must also accept the confines of the sanctioning body's rulings as the TAD class must.

You just can't compare apples and oranges. The situation in PSB is nothing like the one in TAD. Competitors in TAD can chose blown alcohol or injected nitro. I'll say this one last time NO ONE OTHER THAN V&H CAN RUN A 160 CU.IN. 60 DEGREE DOHC 4-VALVE MOTOR. Even if you wanted to build your own and not buy the V&H motor, you couldn't do it. I don't care what way you spin it, that's not fair.

Finally, I'm sorry if I personally attacked you, I didn't try to. I can walk in the back of the shop where I work and touch a PSM motor. I don't think it fair to call anyone a whiner in PSB at this point in time.

Well it's a pretty strong statement to call out these PSB teams and say they're whiners! The Buell teams and the one Suzuki team not running V&H power are working their tails off to compete.


The Suzuki's with V&H power aren't exactly at the top of the heap.;)

Thanks guys!! I am very happy right now. This break has been REALLY good for me. I had absolutely NO IDEA how much I needed it!! Who knows what's in store for me, but like you put it Paul, I will be happy and I will make the most of it. I do believe that I am done with PSM though. I'm ready for something different. I loved my 13 years of PSM and am so grateful to have had the experience. Whatever happens, I want you guys to know that your support has meant the world to me. Even the bashing that I've taken, when place was more like nitroHATER, has made me a better and stronger person. I have truly been blessed!! Thanks YALL!!!

;)Angelle

Angelle,
Did you notice the kudos you got in the bit that was done at E'town with Antron + his grandmother? At the very end-and 1/2 talked over, grandma was in the car and said just as the bit was closing "I bet your cousin could do it and cut a better light!"

I do believe that I am done with PSM though.

Ouch, as a big fan that's going to be hard for me to swallow.

Everytime you came to the line on one of those bikes it was an exciting thing, even the time you rolled back to make sure your team mate would take the championship (I always thought that was a classier way to do it than "faking it").

Thanks for the memories and excitement, and best of luck with your future direction.

Paul Titchener

Hey, What you trying to say Amanda? That I don't have,.... oh wait,... you're right,... I don't have those.:D:D He He!! ;)

Congrats on your marriage chicky! Miss you!

Hey girl! You definitely have balls, well not literally, but you know what I mean. LOL.

Thanks for the congrats! Things fly by so quick that it's just crazy. :)

Hope to see you soon, even though I never make it to any races anymore. Gonna try to make the U.S. Nationals on Monday, but that's about it.

Hope you are doing well!

[QUOTE=Angelle Sampey;217251 I do believe that I am done with PSM though. I'm ready for something different. ;)Angelle[/QUOTE]

Does this mean you would be interested in trying another class???? ( I HOPE )
or am I reading too much into this??

What ever you decide, best of luck, GOD bless you.
Long time fan - Zap

I do believe that I am done with PSM though. I'm ready for something different. I
;)Angelle

Well I guess that means I don't get to see you carry my sticker down the track anymore like you did with all of your championships:)

I reminded George that every championship he won with you and John, he had APE stickers on the bike. He thought for a second and said" you're right... what do you make for a buell" :p


Jay